What religion do you have?

[Highlander]

what religion do you have? vote in the poll please.

[Florian Geyer]

Cock up in my vote.When i ticked "others" I meant to say I have "none".Thankyou...............:D

[Highlander]

Cock up in my vote.When i ticked "others" I meant to say I have "none".Thankyou...............:D

none is atheism!!! :)

[etoile noir]

i voted others .... i don't feel much affinity to any of the above, however i have been doing much reading on Epicureanism lately, and although i can't say i'm an epicurean, i find it very interesting.

[Highlander]

btw, i did this poll because i have a theory, i observed that people with certain faiths tend to have a set view on right politics whilst others with a different faiths (or lack of) have a different set view on politics.

till now, only one replied chirstianity so my theory might actualyl be write ;)

[Cikku]

WHY is Roman Catholic not included ?
:confused:

[etoile noir]

cikku, many faiths/creeds are missing. i guess RC falls under christianity.

could highlander confirm please?

[Highlander]

roman cathocisim is included yes. any religion that features jesus christ as a super star hero god made man is christianity ;)

[Cikku]

I ASSUMED as much, but it's not correct. Regarding the other faiths/creeds missing, well, I think Highlander went for the "most common ones" and probably apparent in here.

[Highlander]

I ASSUMED as much, but it's not correct. Regarding the other faiths/creeds missing, well, I think Highlander went for the "most common ones" and probably apparent in here.

yes, the most common ones in this forum. i did not put islam or judaism. are there any muslims or jews here? not really. christianity includes RC and also all the other flavoured JCes.

[Cikku]

roman cathocisim is included yes. any religion that features jesus christ as a super star hero god made man is christianity -- Originally Posted by Highlander

I'm sorry, I DON'T agree ! I am a Christian but not much of a Roman Catholic and trying to debase ANY religion is very unhealthy !

Christianity = the religion derived from Jesus Christ , based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies

Roman Catholic = of, relating to, or being a Christian church having a hierarchy of priests and bishops under the pope, a liturgy centered in the Mass, veneration of the Virgin Mary and saints, clerical celibacy, and a body of dogma including transubstantiation and papal infallibility

[Highlander]

I'm sorry, I DON'T agree ! I am a Christian but not much of a Roman Catholic and trying to debase ANY religion is very unhealthy !

Christianity = the religion derived from Jesus Christ , based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies

Roman Catholic = of, relating to, or being a Christian church having a hierarchy of priests and bishops under the pope, a liturgy centered in the Mass, veneration of the Virgin Mary and saints, clerical celibacy, and a body of dogma including transubstantiation and papal infallibility


well. does RC fall or not under Christianity? I think it does.

Christianity includes RC, Ortodox, Protestanism, Lutheranism, Evangelism, Coptic etc.

[Cikku]

well. does RC fall or not under Christianity? I think it does. -- Originally Posted by Highlander

Perhaps, THE OTHER WAY ROUND, i.e Christianity under RC
;)

[Highlander]

Perhaps, THE OTHER WAY ROUND, i.e Christianity under RC
;)

I don't agree. First JC came then from him a lot of churches emerged amongs them the RC and the coptic christians and even the ethiopia orthodoxy (chrisitianity)

[Cikku]

I don't agree. First JC came then from him a lot of churches emerged amongs them the RC and the coptic christians and even the ethiopia orthodoxy (chrisitianity) -- Originally Posted by Highlander

Let us not go too deep into it and just agree to disagree !

[Highlander]

i cannot agree to disagree because that would kill the discussion :)

Christianity is at least three things:



A set of beliefs
A way of life
A community of people
Different Christian groups place different weights on these three aspects, but they always involve all three. All three aspects are based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who is also known as the Christ. ("Christ" was originally a title. It is the Greek form of the Hebrew "Messiah", meaning "anointed".)


http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/


discover your denomination here -->

http://selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=christiandenom

[Canadian Charlie]

Sometimes I believe in God, heaven and hell.

Most of the times I don't.


99% of the time I'm convinced that I am in Hell

[Florian Geyer]

Perhaps, THE OTHER WAY ROUND, i.e Christianity under RC
;)

Aint that like putting the cart in front of the horse Cik?:confused:

[Gladiator]

I believe in Whisky and Gin Lol:p :p :p

I see God and hell everyday.
Mount Royales showes me her Don Valley and its hell when she yells!:eek: :eek: :eek:

[etoile noir]

I believe in Whisky and Gin Lol:p :p :p

I see God and hell everyday.
Mount Royales showes me her Don Valley and its hell when she yells!:eek: :eek: :eek:

this guy's funny!
do you ever do any work? i mean apart grom ogling mount royales cleavage?
and when she yells do they wobble around more than usual?

and under what category do you classify this creed? i very much doubt it would fit in with the sermon on the mount section :eek:

[Gladiator]

this guy's funny!
do you ever do any work? i mean apart grom ogling mount royales cleavage?
and when she yells do they wobble around more than usual?

and under what category do you classify this creed? i very much doubt it would fit in with the sermon on the mount section :eek:


Ofcourse I do work. I just don't go to stare at MR everyday. She makes sure that I do work.:eek: Besides the Don Valley is further south from where you pointed.:rolleyes: No it's more like Dante's Inferno. Lol:eek:

[Siobhan]

Atheism is not a religion. Atheists do not believe in gods or anything supernatural.

Don t want to be a pain in the **** but could you modify that poll?

Thanks :)

[etoile noir]

what modifications would you suggest Siobhan?

[Marco Polo]

i am officially rc but dont believe in it.

i am not really an atheist but just cant say if a god exists or not.

[Siobhan]

what modifications would you suggest Siobhan?

Just erase the word atheism.

You could put a seperate sentence at the end below "others" saying:

No religion/Atheist

[etoile noir]

Just erase the word atheism.

You could put a seperate sentence at the end below "others" saying:

No religion/Atheist

better now? or does anyone have any more suggestions?

[PERICLES]

better now? or does anyone have any more suggestions?

I'm RC however I don't practise therefore I'm an agnostic. That's why I voted others.

[etoile noir]

I'm RC however I don't practise therefore I'm an agnostic. That's why I voted others.

so shall i add agnostic too? well pericles you can too if you like ;)

[Siobhan]

Thanks Etoile:)

[PERICLES]

so shall i add agnostic too? well pericles you can too if you like ;)

But can Ichange the way I voted. If yes tell how cause I don't know :o

[etoile noir]

No New Age? :confused:

----------------

I Believe in a Mixture of Agnosticism and New Age.

New age as in how Rosmark? as in hippy chick flower power born again happy clappy ones?

or the tarot reading ones for breakfast, horoscope for lunch and trance for dinner? :eek:

[etoile noir]

apologies rosmark. its late and i'm tired but that's no excuse for being rude to you.

here's a short thing i had once written for a theology assignment on new age religions. does it match your new age ideology?

______________________________________________

The "New Age" really began in the "Age of Aquarius" in the mid-1960s. It was a wonderful opening up that started in America and slowly infiltrated many major religions, particularly in the West. Worthwhile social movements gained momentum in many areas, seeking peace instead of war, the women's movement for personal freedom. civil rights for minorities, environmental protection, psychological self-analysis and spiritual awakening.

Many of these movements have benefited the people, and many people have sincerely searched for and found a spiritual awakening. This aspect of true spiritual growth is continuing, and has great potential. However, over the past 35 years there has been a major shift in the focus of the movement as a new generation has come along. The shift among some is away from the movement's initial fundamental principles founded in moral and spiritual enlightenment, and toward a "drive-through" mentality more interested in self-gratification, also called self-fulfilment.


This modern trend has come to be known as the "New Age". We have all seen the statements of people who claim to be seeking spiritual awakening, and who state boldly that they believe God's purpose is for them to prosper and be happy. In other words, do whatever you please as long as you achieve your material and emotional desires, and call it a religion. Many people substitute superficial forms and fantasy for a genuine spiritual search. They get a "telephone-Tarot" reading in the morning, listen to some mind-numbing synthetic music during lunch, structure their life around their horoscopes and worry about aliens invading Earth. The paradox here is that they do all this while seeking satisfaction in all their worldly activities.

[argo]

I find myself unable to vote. The way I see things is that there seems to be method in the madness of life on this Earth. Whoever created it must be a sadist of the first degree.

[etoile noir]

maybe that ought to go under - other, please specify ;)

gnite all :)

[Marco Polo]

Many of these movements have benefited the people, and many people have sincerely searched for and found a spiritual awakening. This aspect of true spiritual growth is continuing, and has great potential. However, over the past 35 years there has been a major shift in the focus of the movement as a new generation has come along. The shift among some is away from the movement's initial fundamental principles founded in moral and spiritual enlightenment, and toward a "drive-through" mentality more interested in self-gratification, also called self-fulfilment.


This modern trend has come to be known as the "New Age". We have all seen the statements of people who claim to be seeking spiritual awakening, and who state boldly that they believe God's purpose is for them to prosper and be happy. In other words, do whatever you please as long as you achieve your material and emotional desires, and call it a religion. Many people substitute superficial forms and fantasy for a genuine spiritual search. They get a "telephone-Tarot" reading in the morning, listen to some mind-numbing synthetic music during lunch, structure their life around their horoscopes and worry about aliens invading Earth. The paradox here is that they do all this while seeking satisfaction in all their worldly activities.

DECADENCE, pure and simple!

It is the last stage before collapse of civilisation. :eek:

Mass escapism in fits of alcoholism, drug abuse and all the rest.

[Lena]

I have been an ardent Christian, atheist and agnostic throughout my life. Now I have reached a plateau where I have neglected/ignored/learnt to live without (make of it what you will) a spiritual dimension in my life which suits me just fine.

I do admire certain aspects of religions, for instance Christianity and Bhuddism, but I don't think I am cut out for religion. I tend to lose interest and with it faith way too quickly and easily.

I guess I have my own morals inspired by others' of course. I value truth and goodness, and I think those are the only gods or ideals I will ever be able to believe in.

[Revolutionary]

Bonapartism is a way of life for me. I worship Napoleon Bonaparte and have a great respect for all those who have been loyal to him until his last days.


Vive l'Empereur!

[Macchiavelli]

Jien Kattoliku Tradizzjonali. Peress li hafna ma jifhumx din it-terminologija qed naghti xi taghrif mehud minn Wikipedia. Jien m'iniex sedevacantist izda noqrob hafna lejn l-SSPX. Min irid aktar informazzjoni jibghatli messagg privat. Grazzi.

Traditionalist Catholic

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4c/Mass44.jpg/180px-Mass44.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mass44.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mass44.jpg)
A traditional Tridentine Mass


Traditionalist Catholic and traditional Catholic are terms used to refer to Roman Catholics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic) who want to see the worship and customs of the general body of Roman Catholics return to those prevailing before the reforms of the 1960s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960s).
Many of them claim that, since then, the presentation and the understanding of the Church's teaching have changed, at least in emphasis, to an unacceptable degree; some exclude from the meaning of the two terms those whose views on this matter are more liberal.

Survey of traditional groups

Traditionalist Catholics have in common dedication to attending Mass celebrated in Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_%28language%29) in accordance with a pre-1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970) Roman Missal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Missal). Some reject the latest such Missal, issued in 1962 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962) by Pope John XXIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XXIII), while a very few wish to return even to before the 1955 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955) edition, which incorporates the numerous changes that Pope Pius XII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII) made in the liturgy of the days from Palm Sunday (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Sunday) to the Vigil of Easter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter) (see Novus Ordo Missae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_Ordo_Missae)).
While no organization links all or even a majority of traditionalist Catholics, some of them associate with a society or individual priest who provides the earlier-style Mass that they prefer. Some of these priestly societies are canonical institutes within the Catholic Church, of which they are fully part. These include the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Fraternity_of_St._Peter), the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Christ_the_King_Sovereign_Priest), and the Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Apostolic_Administration_of_Saint_John_Mary_Vianney). The Society of St. Pius X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St._Pius_X) is a priestly society that, while not in "formal schism", is in a "situation of separation".[1] (http://www.30giorni.it/us/articolo_stampa.asp?id=9360) The Society of St. Pius V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St._Pius_V), the Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_of_Mary_Immaculate_Queen), the Orthodox Roman Catholic Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Roman_Catholic_Movement), and others that reject the Popes most recently elected by conclaves in Rome, come under the heading of sedevacantism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) (belief that the Holy See (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See) is in fact vacant). Other groups, such as the True Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Catholic_Church) and the Palmarian Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmarian_Catholic_Church), are headed by a self-styled Pope, leaving no room whatever for doubt that they are in formal schism. There are also other Independent Catholic Churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Catholic_Churches), as well as individual priests who, after breaking with their diocese or religious institute, gain a personal following.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Traditionalist_Catholic&action=edit&section=2)]

Traditionalist beliefs

Traditionalist Catholics believe that they preserve orthodoxy by refusing to accept certain changes introduced since the Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council), changes that some of them describe as "a veritable revolution".
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/0b/Vatican2.jpg/180px-Vatican2.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vatican2.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vatican2.jpg)
A session of Vatican II


Those who accept Pope Benedict XVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI) and his immediate predecessors as true Popes view the Second Vatican Council as a valid, albeit problematic, Council. But most "sedevacantists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism)" regard Pope Pius XII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII) as the last true Pope, and judge the Council, convened and ratified by his successors, to be as invalid as these were as Popes.
Traditionalist Catholics claim that what mainstream Catholics now accept would have been considered "Modernist" or "liberal" at the time of the Second Vatican Council, and that they themselves hold views that were then considered "conservative" or "traditional".
What Pope Benedict XVI called "the interpretation of discontinuity and rupture" of the Council’s documents is common among traditionalist Catholics, as opposed to the interpretation of "reform and continuity" proposed by the Popes, beginning with Pope John XXIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XXIII), who, on opening the Council, said that the Council "wishes to transmit the doctrine, pure and integral, without any attenuation or distortion", and added: "Our duty is not only to guard this precious treasure, as if we were concerned only with antiquity, but to dedicate ourselves with an earnest will and without fear to that work which our era demands ... This sure unchangeable doctrine, which must be faithfully respected, has to be studied in depth and presented in a way that answers the needs of our time. For the deposit of the faith, that is, the truths contained in our venerable doctrine, is one thing, and the way in which they are enunciated, while still preserving the same meaning and significance, is another."[2] (http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=63440) [3] (http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=4944)
Traditional Catholics, instead, largely believe that errors have crept into the presentation and understanding of Catholic teaching, either because of liberal interpretations of Vatican II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) documents, and/or because of post-conciliar pastoral decisions that they believe have harmed the Church, and/or, as some believe, because of the Council's documents themselves. Most traditionalist Catholics see the Second Vatican Council itself as a valid Council, but one that was pastoral and produced no infallibly-presented, solemn definitions that Catholics must accept as part of the Faith. Support for this claim is sought in Pope John XXIII's [COLOR=#0000ff]Opening Address to the Council[/COLOR] (http://www.churchdocs.org/vaticanII/j23open.html), Pope Paul VI's [COLOR=#0000ff]closing address[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches/1965/documents/hf_p-vi_spe_19651207_epilogo-concilio_en.html), the lack of formal definitions and anathemas in the Council's sixteen documents (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/), and the alleged ambiguity of the documents themselves, which makes an "authentic" interpretation, other than that presented and acted upon by the Holy See, difficult to discern.
A catalog of some of the perceived errors by some traditionalists are:

A new understanding of [COLOR=#0000ff]collegiality[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collegiality) which they claim has weakened the papacy and made bishops' conferences a veritable "second Vicar of Christ" for the Church. They see this as contradicting, among other documents, [COLOR=#0000ff]Pope Leo XIII[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_XIII)'s [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Satis Cognitum[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html)[/I] and the [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Nota Praevia (appendix)[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)[/I] to Vatican II's [I]Lumen Gentium.[/I][LIST]
A new ecclesiology that they claim doesn't equate the Catholic Church with the Church established by Jesus Christ, but treats the Church established by Jesus Christ as merely "subsisting in" the Catholic Church in an undefined way. They claim that the typical interpretation of this "subsistence" contradicts Pope Pius XII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII)'s [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Mystici Corporis Christi[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html)[/I], among other papal documents, and leads to "false ideas" of [COLOR=#0000ff]ecumenism[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenism).[/LIST]
A new focus on the natural world and the environment coupled with a de-emphasizing of the [COLOR=#0000ff]supernatural[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural) and preternatural worlds. This, they say, leads to [COLOR=#0000ff]Deism[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism), [COLOR=#0000ff]Pragmatism[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism), and [COLOR=#0000ff]moral relativism[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism).
A new focus on "the dignity of man", which they claim ignores [COLOR=#0000ff]original sin[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin) and the need for supernatural grace, and which they also claim has led to a sort of Utopianism that sees peace as possible without recognizing the Kingship of Christ. They see this attitude, and teachings rooted in it, as contradicting [COLOR=#0000ff]Pope Pius XI[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XI)'s [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Quas Primas[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_11121925_quas-primas_en.html)[/I], Pope Leo XIII's [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae[/COLOR] (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm)[/I] and [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Rerum Novarum[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html),[/I] [COLOR=#0000ff]Pope Pius X[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_X)'s [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Notre charge apostolique[/COLOR] (http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5456),[/I] and other papal and conciliar documents that deal with social teaching.[LIST]
A "false" [COLOR=#0000ff]ecumenism[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenism) that has as its goal a religious unity that they see as not requiring conversion to the Catholic faith. They see this as contradicting Sacred Scripture, Pope [COLOR=#0000ff]Pius XI[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pius_XI)'s [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Mortalium Animos[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html),[/I] Pope Pius XII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII)'s [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Humani Generis[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis_en.html)[/I] and other documents.[/LIST]
A new view of ecclesiastical tradition that sees it as extremely changeable and has led to what they see as dangerous modifications in Catholic practices, the liturgy, and the Church's pastoral orientation. They see this as contradicting, among other papal and conciliar documents, the [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Fourth Anathema of the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea[/COLOR] (http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/NICAEA2.HTM),[/I] the teaching of the [COLOR=#0000ff]First Vatican Council[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vatican_Council) (especially the document [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Pastor Aeternus[/COLOR] (http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm)[/I]).
A new pastoral orientation and attitude toward novelty that they claim was unheard of in the Catholic Church before the Second Vatican Council. Some of them see this as contradicting the [COLOR=#0000ff]papal oath[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_oath) that they claim was taken by all Popes from [COLOR=#0000ff]Pope Agatho[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Agatho) to Pope Paul VI, [COLOR=#0000ff]Pope Pius X[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_X)'s Motu Proprio [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Sacrorum antistitum[/COLOR] (http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P10MOATH.HTM)[/I] (an oath taken by all priests prior to the Council), [COLOR=#0000ff]Pope Gregory XVI[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_XVI)'s [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Mirari Vos[/COLOR] (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16mirar.htm),[/I] the Fourth Anathema of the Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, and other papal and conciliar documents.
A new and critical attitude towards Sacred Scripture that contradicts Leo XIII's [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Providentissimus Deus[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18111893_providentissimus-deus_en.html)[/I] and Benedict XV's [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Spiritus Paraclitus[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xv/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xv_enc_15091920_spiritus-paraclitus_en.html)[/I] among other documents.
An ignoring of the traditional belief that the Church and the world are at variance with one another to some degree, and that the Church has enemies. They believe that Pope Pius X's warnings in [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Pascendi Dominici Gregis[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html),[/I] Leo XIII's [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Humanum Genus[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_18840420_humanum-genus_en.html)[/I], and other papal warnings against secret societies and enemies of Christendom have gone unheeded and that the enemy warned against has entered into the human element of the Church itself.
A new "Paschal theology", which they see as de-emphasizing the Sacrifice of the [COLOR=#0000ff]Mass[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_%28liturgy%29) and which they claim leads the faithful to believe that it is Christ's Resurrection alone, and not the Blood shed by His Sacrifice on the Cross, that saves. Traditional Catholics see the revision of the Mass liturgy under Pope Paul VI as a fruit of this "paschal theology," a theology they see as contradicting Scripture and Encyclicals such as Pope Pius XII's [I][COLOR=#0000ff]Mediator Dei[/COLOR] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html)[/I]. They also see this paschal theology as de-emphasizing the meaning of suffering, ignoring Christ's admonition to Christians to "take up their crosses" (Matthew 10:38), and forgetting St. Paul's admonitions to mortify the flesh (Galatians 5:18–25, Colossians 1:23–24).
A "new Mass", which they also call the "Novus Ordo Missae". This they construe as rooted in the aforementioned Paschal Theology and as accordingly de-emphasizing traditional Catholic teaching on the Mass as a Sacrifice (the offering up of Jesus to his Father in a re-presentation of Calvary and for the remission of sins). They contend that it has been stripped of important Catholic prayers, is open to abuse because of the variety of options allowed, de-emphasizes the ordained priesthood, is divisive because of the abandonment of Latin, which brought people of various nations together, is man-centered rather than God-centered, allegedly omits readings that mention Hell, Pharisaism, miracles, etc., and is less beautiful, poetic, and able to act as a sign of Mystery (cf. [COLOR=#0000ff]Ottaviani Intervention[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottaviani_Intervention)). On its validity and acceptability traditionalist Catholic views differ:[LIST]
Some see it as valid, and as acceptable when necessary, though the "traditional Mass" should be attended when at all possible.
Some, including members of the Society of St. Pius X, hold that, though valid if offered with valid matter and the intention to do as the Church does, it must be avoided, on the grounds that the changes are sacrilegious and harmful to the Catholic Faith, and that the actual use of valid matter and the proper intention are often questionable.
Some, including most sedevacantists, see it as invalid and absolutely inacceptable.
[/LIST][edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Traditionalist_Catholic&action=edit&section=3)]

Practices of traditionalist Catholics

Traditionalist Catholics are more likely than Roman Catholics in general to follow:

disciplinary practices such as abstaining from meat on all Fridays that do not coincide with an important liturgical feast, fasting from the previous midnight before receiving [COLOR=#0000ff]Holy Communion[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), and women covering their heads in church;
devotional exercises such as the Rosary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary) and wearing a [COLOR=#0000ff]scapular[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapular).None of these practices or exercises is peculiar to traditionalist Catholics. Perhaps the only clear distinguishing mark of certain traditionalist Catholics in this field is non-acceptance of the additional five mysteries of the Rosary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary) that Pope John Paul II added to the earlier fifteen (see Luminous mysteries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary#Luminous_mysteries)).
As for the disciplinary practices mentioned above, most episcopal conferences have, since the Second Vatican Council, allowed other penitential practices to take the place of Friday abstinence, at least outside of Lent, and the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India has allowed abstinence from meat to be reckoned a penitential exercise only for those for whom meat is a normal part of their diet; Pope Pius XII, several years before that Council, reduced the obligatory fast before Holy Communion at first to three hours and later to a single hour; and, even before that, a head covering for women in church was not considered obligatory in every country.
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Places of worship

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Unchurch.jpg/180px-Unchurch.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Unchurch.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Unchurch.jpg)
A pre-Vatican II altar with reredos


Some traditionalist Catholics attend "Tridentine" Mass within diocesan structures. The Congregation for Divine Worship's circular letter Quattuor abhinc annos (http://www.adoremus.org/Quattuorabhincannos.html) of 3 October (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_3) 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984) granted diocesan bishops an indult to authorize celebration of Mass according to the 1962 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962) edition of the Roman Missal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Missal) in favour of priests and faithful who request it and who clearly do not share the positions adopted by those who question the lawfulness and doctrinal soundness of the 1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970) edition. The priests who offer these Masses may be members of priestly societies to which the Catholic Church grants recognition, such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Fraternity_of_St._Peter), or they may be ordinary diocesan priests or members of religious institutes. Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos, President of the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_Dei), himself occasionally celebrates Mass in public in accordance with the 1962 Missal, and other cardinals also have done so in recent years, though much less frequently.
The website (http://www.fiuv.org/en/4.asp) of the traditionalist International Federation Una Voce gives a list, with addresses and other contact information, of priestly societies and religious institutes in full communion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_%28Christianity%29) with the Holy See and the Roman Catholic Church in general that are dedicated to preserving the "Tridentine" Mass.
No such list exists of the heterogeneous associations and unattached priests who celebrate the "Tridentine" Mass in a situation of schism or separation. The best known of these is the Society of St. Pius X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St._Pius_X), which does not accept the conditions attached to the Quattuor abhinc annos indult, and so is not allowed to operate within diocesan structures. Accordingly, it offers Mass according to the 1962 Missal in its own centres, maintaining that no authorization whatever is required. It teaches that "the Indult Mass ... is not for traditional Catholics",[4] (http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q10_indult.htm) and quotes an article that concludes that "those who are only near Masses 'of Pope Paul VI' or to traditional Masses said under the 'Indult'" are excused from the obligation of attending Sunday Mass, "[f]irstly because of the danger for the faith coming either from the priests who celebrate or from the faithful who attend them; secondly, legitimization is given to the new liturgy and finally an approval more or less implicit of the work of destruction of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Tradition."[5] (http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/attendance_at_the_indult_vanes.htm). With regard to the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter, the Society of St Pius X declares that "a Catholic ought not to attend their Masses" because of what the Society calls the Fraternity's support for "the new religion which is being installed" and its "blanket acceptance of Vatican II's orthodoxy".[6] (http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q13_fraternity.htm)
Other priests too, whether belonging to sedevacantist groups such as the Society of St. Pius V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_St._Pius_V) and the Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_of_Mary_Immaculate_Queen) or unattached to any group, offer Mass in their own centres according to various editions of the Roman Missal anterior to 1970.
Those who thus worship outside of diocesan structures justify their position on the grounds that they must do so in order to ensure they are able to administer or receive all of the Sacraments - not just the Eucharist - in the traditional way, and to be able to give or hear sermons on controversial matters (e.g., ecumenism, evangelism, liberalism, sin, Purgatory, Hell, political issues, sex scandals, etc.) without fear of reprisal from disapproving Bishops.
Though there is a certain level of dispute among these various groups at the official level, traditionalist Catholic lay people generally tend to have good relations with each other, though often with some tension between sedevacantists and those who accept the acclaimed Pope. A given traditionalist Catholic might have strong opinions for or against worshiping outside of diocesan structures, or might instead worship at more than one of the above settings without qualm.
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Relations with other Catholic groups

Traditionalist Catholics see mainstream Catholics as often careless of tradition, enamoured of novelty and unthinkingly compliant, sometimes using the derogatory term [COLOR=#0000ff]Cafeteria Catholics[/COLOR] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cafeteria_Catholic) to describe them. For their part, mainstream Catholics see traditionalist Catholics as in great part merely nostalgic, afraid of change, and, if disobedient to the decrees of the Holy See, as those who, because of their picking and choosing, really deserve the name of "Cafeteria Catholics". Each side argues that the other's comprehension of its beliefs and practices lacks subtlety, and that the other's response to its criticisms is frequently emotional, misinformed, and based on a false understanding of Christian obedience and the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church). To each side the other recommends study for discerning the truth, and prayer for openness to accepting it.
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Relations with the Holy See

The relations of traditionalist Catholics with the Holy See naturally vary according to their attitude in its regard.
In denying the legitimacy of the present Pope, sedevacantists also deny the authority of the decrees that he, and the Holy See in general, issue. If a sedevacantist group is headed by someone whom they call the true Pope, they may apply the term "Holy See" to their own group or part of it, instead of using it as ordinarily understood.
Some traditionalist Catholics do not deny the legitimacy of the Pope, but, as seen above, they reject as illegitimate and even doctrinally erroneous certain recent declarations and decrees of the Holy See, which, they allege, contradict previous declarations by the Church. Some of these treat the decisions of the Pope and the Holy See as little more than opinions of individuals, to whom they may refer by expressions such as "Vatican hierarchs".
Finally, there are traditionalist Catholics who do not dispute the lawfulness and doctrinal soundness of decisions by the Holy See in recent decades on, for instance, revising the liturgy, but who do question the wisdom of those decisions.
The Holy See views as schismatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism), not only sedevacantists, who clearly reject the present succession of Popes in Rome, but also many other individual traditionalist Catholics, particularly those involved in organizations in which priests act in complete independence of the Holy See and of the bishops whom the Pope recognizes as being in full communion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_%28Christian%29) with him, even in matters for which a link with those bishops is normally a condition for validity of the act.[7] (http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CEDSSPX2.HTM) It views as in "a situation of separation" but not of "formal schism" other traditionalist Catholics who reject its authority in practice, though not on the level of principle.[8] (http://www.30giorni.it/us/articolo_stampa.asp?id=9360)
As for traditionalist Catholics who do not dispute its authority within the Catholic Church, the Holy See recognizes as fully legitimate their preference for "the Latin liturgical tradition" [9] (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html) The Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Apostolic_Administration_of_Saint_John_Mary_Vianney) and the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Fraternity_of_St._Peter) are examples of how such traditionalist Catholics are fully accommodated within the Church. While the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia_Dei)" normally leaves the decision to the local bishops, who have the advantage of direct knowledge of the situation in their dioceses, it recommends them to grant permission generously for the celebration of "Tridentine" Mass.
The Holy See has never stated whether it accepts the view of those theologians who hold that ordination conferred merely on an individual as such and not for the service of an existing Christian community is invalid. But in regard to the ceremony carried out by Archbishop Ngó-dinh-Thuc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Thuc_Pierre_Martin) at Palmar de Troya, Spain at midnight of 31 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_31) 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975) and to later ordinations by those whom he consecrated as bishops, the Holy See has declared that, "as for those who have already thus unlawfully received ordination or any who may yet accept ordination from these, whatever about the validity of their orders, the Church does not and will not recognize their ordination, and will consider them, for all legal effects, as still in the state in which they were before, except that the ... penalties remain until they repent" (Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Decree Episcopi qui alios of 17 September (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_17) 1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976) - Acta Apostolicae Sedis 1976, page 623).
In contrast, the Holy See explicitly recognizes the validity of the episcopal consecrations conferred by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre without papal mandate, for the service of his followers; but it sees the bishops involved as automatically excommunicated. It views the priests of the Society of St Pius X whom these bishops ordain as validly ordained, but considers them suspended a divinis, i.e. forbidden by the Church to celebrate Mass and the other sacraments. The Ecclesia Dei Commission gives assurance that those who attend Mass offered by these priests are not, for that fact alone, liable to ecclesiastical penalties such as excommunication (an unpublished communication from the Commission, No. 549/99 of 28 September (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_28) 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999), is quoted as stating this explicitly, and the same is indicated implicitly in communications that have been published). On the other hand, the Commission has declared attendance at SSPX Masses to be "morally illicit" for Catholics in normal circumstances.[10] (http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CEDSSPX.HTM)

[strickland 10th district]

was is it about religion today? man, this sit is going mad but as usual some messages are classics,like that of Argo" unable to vote".:D

[Angelfish]

Christianity esp Catholicisn, seems to be making a comeback on a large scale, even in lacksadaisical countries like the UK.I watched some programs on this particular subject of late both on CNN and Sky news. Maybe , the world news of these last few years , esp since 9/11 is making people rethink their values and make some decent "stocktaking" around themsleves.
I have friends of mine who used to boast that they were atheists not so long ago. Now, they even went as far as voting for the Christ sculpture on our euro because they are realising that we are fast approaching a time when everyone has to stand up and be counted. It is human nature sometimes, to realise just how precious something may be to you , when somone else appears out of the blues threatening to take it away from you wether you like it or not.

[Angelfish]

I doubt they refound their values if they were atheists, they just concluded (probably) that an atheist under christianity can live a relatively normal life whilst an atheist under Islam is DEAD!!

So they chose the lesser evil .. one that cannot hurt much.. ;)
It is called "common sense" and as we say in Maltese..."ma iddardarx l ghajn li tixrob minnha".

[Angelfish]

It is human nature to appreciate something that was taken forgranted only when someone threatens to take it away from you. Basic human rights and freedom are such underestimated gifts that we tend to take forgranted.

[KuRt]

I am a christian, and proud.. i feel that my religion identifies me from what i am, Christianity nowadays gives us freedom, unlike other religions, like islam, for me islam is a terrorism!!!!!!! .....I voted other though.

I voted other because i am agnostic.

KuRt

[strickland 10th district]

you see, it works like this.........muslums with their rules make people angry. This works well for the church because it brings back its thinking lost flock.This is a crazy world and you live in it.

I can live with other religions as long as they are peaceful like Buddists. All this waving of guns and swinging the Koran with burning flags makes my blood boil and upsets me.

I belong to the western world and I will not compromise with anything worse.

[KuRt]

Of course me too, i am interested in buddhism, i have nothing against oriental people, they dont bother me, arabs/muslims bother me, as what u said correctly, they are savages, and they want to make europe theirs, i dont want to live with ppl like them, we must not integrate with islam, it only harms us and every1 around it.

[strickland 10th district]

A message to muslims:

What muslims do is far from what Islam says. Still, I do not favor Islam but it would be better if muslims followed their own rules.

Muslims have no peace in their countries.How can they be of a good example?

Their governments are very bad, what example is this of Islam?

They cannot even live in peace with a little nation called Israel,their brothers of the book,how can they live with the rest of the world?

In the next thousand years the muslims might reach our standards but till that date we will keep you away from our civilised world till you learn to live with decent rules and values. They have no respect for anything. Not even for the Koran. They break their own rules.

Leave us live in peace and stay away.

[maltesefalcon]

i voted other,
the reason being that my roots are catholic and to a certain point i still beleive that christ's message was a benign one and like many other messages was contorted and twisted by power hungry individuals to serve their purpose.
Ultimately i beleive in a higher power just like our fathers did thousands of years ago and that heir is a higher reason to our existence however utopian that may sound.

[strickland 10th district]

How is it possable that we don't have any Muslims or Jews on this site? I am sure that they like reading about their own religion. The truth. It's not that this site is not free to allow everyone to write, depending how correct one writes.

PS. The Graffitti's religion is as green as grass ,thats why they hang out with AD. To protect their fields. The reason they never have money (leaving out the LM3,700 the government gives them every year from our tax money) because they contribute to the Goddess of Green. Thats why they always look like this..:D .LOL.

[Mirko]

cosmotheism, the only way foward.

[EuropeanHybrid]

Pantheism should be enjoyed with care;
if misunderstood, it might imply the flavour of a certain Mr. Baruch Spinoza, no offence.