Imperivm Map, Map of Regions and People.

[Jurgenarius]

I had taken this initative to make a map of Europe with its Historical Regions and people. I had done where today is France, Spain, Portugalk, Belgium.

I would appreciate ideas. This will also white people outside Europe.

[IMPERIUM]

This is a great idea, Jurgenarius.
We must delineate the Regions that will form the coming Imperium.
This is most important - with Ethnic and geographical boundaries especially so.

It would be a good idea if such a map would be continually updated, adjusted as we go along.
Now, the seeds of discontent amongst Regions must be avoided at inception.
The final word on this is an Elite, Imperium decision - not Dominium.

Some issues will be left unsolved till the Imperium is in place.
A balance must be struck between Ethnicity and Geographical space.
Eventually, the IDEA of Imperium will override the petty, old Nationalisms.

Imperium
0710

(I cannot find the link to the map)
Also, I think this thread would be better placed under the IMPERIUM section within the DOMINIUM sub-section.
Thank you.

[etoile noir]

I had taken this initative to make a map of Europe with its Historical Regions and people. I had done where today is France, Spain, Portugalk, Belgium.

I would appreciate ideas. This will also white people outside Europe.
thank you jurgen. you efforts are appreciate, however what dou you mean by "you've done it"? can we see it? as an attachment perhaps ...

thanks :)

[Jurgenarius]

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4903/imperiumyw7.png

Ok, this is the map. its only Iberia and parts of West Europe. I had followed the wikipedia separartist article and some historical regions that existed. You could also notice that Portugal remain the same. But there is new onces, Castille, Andalucia, Catalunia, Aragon, Leon, Asturias and in the old France you could see, Occitania, Aquatine, Normandy.

When ready the European one, il give you all names of the dominiums.

[Jurgenarius]

This is the list of the Dominiums.

Iberia:

Portugal (Remains as it is)
Galicia
Asturias
Cantabria
Leon
Euskadi
Navarre
Catalunia
Aragon
Andalucia
Gibraltar (There is great Influence in the rock from Britain and suprisingly Maltese influence and some others)

France

Corsica
Normandy
France (The Region of the Franks)
Occitania
Provence
Aquitaine
Savoy
Burgundy
Lorraine
Alasce
Brittany

Lowlands

Flanders
Wallonia
Greater Luxemburg
Netherlands
Frisian Islands

Italy

Sicily
Sardinia
Malta (I listed Malta here because it the nearest)
Rome
Naples
Tuscany
Parma
Modena
Veneto
Trento (Trento is not German, Its Italian, Tirol is German)
Lombardy
Liguria (With Nice, its Italian)
Piemonte
Val d'Aosta


This is for now, More updates soon.

NB: I would like some one to help, about Central Asian Ex-Soviets States. in Kazakhistan there is great White Minority (if im sure its about 2% of the population is German and Russian) and the remaining Persians in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan. if we arent going to include them or not.

[etoile noir]

NB: I would like some one to help, about Central Asian Ex-Soviets States. in Kazakhistan there is great White Minority (if im sure its about 2% of the population is German and Russian) and the remaining Persians in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan. if we arent going to include them or not.

please remind me on monday. i have some info at the office where i work.

[Jurgenarius]

il send you pm on monday?

[baralleine]

According to Thiriart, and I tend to agree, North Africa has to be considered as historical European territory. What do you think?

Also, when dealing with Central Asia and nearby regions, try to look back to the Alexandrian/Seleucid Era, when the whole swathe of the land up to Northern India was in Greek hands. It would be nice to revive such ancient regions.

[Jurgenarius]

In North Africa there is White Separatists, The Riffian and Kabyles are Whites. I know some Amazigh, they are harsh and Nationalists. They want to kick out Arabs out of their land. i would say if you go www.whitearyan.info there is a forum of a friend of mine, Amazigh, a Berber from the Rif. You could see very intresting material on the issue.

[baralleine]

I think that with regards to the size of the regions, you should think smaller. It would be a mistake to abandon national delineation, and then depend on the arbitrary lines of power of earlier ages.

Before I comment further, could you please indicate the names of regions on the map? For example historically, Aquitaine is a region in Occitania, which is further made up of two/three more provinces.

[baralleine]

Take a look here, for example: http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/4/4b/370px-France_departements_regions_narrow.jpg

And here (http://www.spanish-living.com/maps_index.php) for Spain.

[Jurgenarius]

im working on these maps like yours. But im also working oin this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_autonomist_and_secessionist_movements

Who want indipedndence or not. For example Murcia is Castillian why should be indipendent? historicaly it was part of Castille. yes about Occitania, Aquitane was indipendent historicaly and even Auvergne. The other has no Historical states as far as i know, of course we dont expect 100% good map from first, by time we arrange it :p and update it ;)

[Jurgenarius]

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5848/imperiumdn5.png

for now this is the update, i will give you update tomorrow evening. ii will continue it tomorrow.

I hade Created this:

France:

Auvergne

Swizerland:

Deutschschweiz
Romandy
Ticino
Grisbunden

British Isles:

Cromwall
Wales
England
Scotland
Isle of Man
Ulster
Ireland

Scandinavia and North Atlantic
Iceland
Faroe Islands

[baralleine]

of course we dont expect 100% good map from first, by time we arrange it :p and update it ;)
Yes, obviously. I'm just lending a hand. :)

[Jurgenarius]

I appreciate that :D

[Marco Polo]

can we exclude london from england and place it underwater?

[Jurgenarius]

Yes, of course!

Perhaps we could lunch a nuclear bomb to london and it will become under Sea. then adio the Queen, Foreigners and all.

LOL

[shadow cup]

While I know that this was jest but some narrow-minded individuals out there would like nothing more than to build sandcastles from them. ^_~

Just a note. Interesting effort by the way.

[etoile noir]

agree with shadow cup.
jurgen, kindly choose your language carefully. it is easily misinterpreted. we know that you're joking and we know what lol means. most dont, or deliberately ignore it.

ahjar kelma nieqsa ...... ;)

[Eurodip]

What a bunch of arse. A.R.S.E. And not the pert female kind either. Flanders is French. And so is the whole of Britain. (At Hastings the Franco-Flemish contingent made up the right flank. And then there was Courtrai and all that). Poland doesn't exist, since it's either German or Lithuanian. Greece is Sicilian, together with Albania. Sardinia is Greek. And I am a banana.

No really, what are you basing your definition on? Which historical period are you referring to?

And it's Cornwall, not Cromwall, but I'm prepared to overlook that. Ulster a region? Faith and begorrah!

[Jurgenarius]

Well, if i had offended someone i will appologise.

My Intentions was to continue with mark said.

Of Course not, London used to be the Greatest City in the World.

Well about Historical time, Its all about old existed states

[Marco Polo]

What a bunch of arse. A.R.S.E. And not the pert female kind either. Flanders is French. And so is the whole of Britain. (At Hastings the Franco-Flemish contingent made up the right flank. And then there was Courtrai and all that). Poland doesn't exist, since it's either German or Lithuanian. Greece is Sicilian, together with Albania. Sardinia is Greek. And I am a banana.

No really, what are you basing your definition on? Which historical period are you referring to?

And it's Cornwall, not Cromwall, but I'm prepared to overlook that. Ulster a region? Faith and begorrah!

stop insulting the british. not even the nobility is french. a few came over as leaders and thats it. the english made up for that in the middle ages. one can read about it in shakespeares henry v.

;)

btw. did u see the way those frenchies were trying to feel the english butts in yesterdays rugby? perverts! another great victory for the english. one can hear the roars of agincourt from here.

its about identities. how does one feel? im sure greeks dont feel sicilian!

[Jurgenarius]

An Update,

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8585/imperiumqw3.png

Iberia

1: Gibraltar
2: Andalucia
3: Portugal
4: Castille
5: Galicia
6: Leon
7: Asturias
8: Cantabria
9: Euskadi
10: Navarre
11: Aragon
12: Catalunia
13: Balearic Islands

France

14: Aquitane
15: Occitania
16: Provence
17: Savoy
18: Auvergne
19: Burgundy
20: Corsica
21: France
22: Brittany
23: Normandy
24: Lorraine
25: Alasce

British Isles

26: England
27: Cronwall
28: Wales
29: Isle of Man
30: Scotland
31: Ulster
32: Ireland

Scandinavia + North Atlantic Islands

33: Faroe Islands
34: Iceland

Lowlands

35: Frisian Islands
36: Holland
37: Flanders
38: Wallonia
39: Luxemburg

Germany and Central Europe

40: Rhineland
41: Saarland
42: Baden
43: Wurttenberg
44: Bavaria
45: Tirol
46: Austria
47: Sudetenland
48: Bohemia
49: Moravia
50: Saxony
51: Hesse-Nassau
52: Westphalia
53: Hannover
54: Oldenburg
55: Scheswig
56: Holstein
57: Mecklenburg
58: Brandenburg
59: Pomerania
60: Sorbia
61: Silesia
62: Poland
63: Prussia

Swizerland

64: Deutschschweiz
65: Romandy
66: Ticino
67: Grisbunden

Italy

68: Val d'Aosta
69: Piemonte
70: Liguria
71: Lombardy
72: Trento
73: Veneto
74: Parma
75: Modena
76: Tuscany
77: Rome
78: Sardinia
79: Naples
80: Sicily
81: Malta

[Eurodip]

OK fine. Let's answer Marco Polo's pertinent question. How does one feel?

Gibraltarians certainly don't feel Spanish. In fact they've been fighting to stay British ever since it was hinted that an "arrangement" was being discussed with the Spanish government.

Euskadi? Who shall define its borders? Indeed, who shall define the borders of any region?

It seems that Jurgenarius is merely repeating an exercise that has already been carried out by the EU, since you do have such a thing as Regions, and Regional Funding. And you also have regions, and regional assemblies, in most European countries.

[Jurgenarius]

so what do you propose there?

[Eurodip]

I propose that we all stop this pointless fantasy trip. I'll believe in the Imperium when I see it. Wake me up in 2012.

[Marco Polo]

OK fine. Let's answer Marco Polo's pertinent question. How does one feel?

Gibraltarians certainly don't feel Spanish. In fact they've been fighting to stay British ever since it was hinted that an "arrangement" was being discussed with the Spanish government.

Euskadi? Who shall define its borders? Indeed, who shall define the borders of any region?

It seems that Jurgenarius is merely repeating an exercise that has already been carried out by the EU, since you do have such a thing as Regions, and Regional Funding. And you also have regions, and regional assemblies, in most European countries.

indeed. gibraltarians would rather be maltese than spanish. one third of the population is maltese and another third genoese.

[IMPERIUM]

I propose that we all stop this pointless fantasy trip. I'll believe in the Imperium when I see it. Wake me up in 2012.
I think you are giving your game away, Eurodip.
What has provoked this reaction? - words like "This fantasy trip".
What is it in the IDEA that provokes such a reaction?

This is a most important thread - thanks to Jurgenarius.
It actually moves us a notch further - from concepts to actual planning.
To the delienating of Regional frontiers that will forever in the future, forbid fratricides.

A Europe, an Imperium of Regions and Peoples.
Each Region, People living in harmony with the others.
Each Region and People guaranteed the safety and security of the Imperium.

Imperium
0710

(btw - you'll live long enough to see the Imperium)

[Jurgenarius]

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7858/imperiumna0.png


1: Gibraltar
2: Andalucia
3: Portugal
4: Castille
5: Galicia
6: Leon
7: Asturias
8: Cantabria
9: Euskadi
10: Navarre
11: Aragon
12: Catalunia
13: Balearic Islands
14: Aquitane
15: Occitania
16: Provence
17: Savoy
18: Auvergne
19: Burgundy
20: Corsica
21: France
22: Brittany
23: Normandy
24: Lorraine
25: Alasce
26: England
27: Cronwall
28: Wales
29: Isle of Man
30: Scotland
31: Ulster
32: Ireland
33: Faroe Islands
34: Iceland
35: Frisian Islands
36: Holland
37: Flanders
38: Wallonia
39: Luxemburg
40: Rhineland
41: Saarland
42: Baden
43: Wurttenberg
44: Bavaria
45: Tirol
46: Austria
47: Sudetenland
48: Bohemia
49: Moravia
50: Saxony
51: Hesse-Nassau
52: Westphalia
53: Hannover
54: Oldenburg
55: Scheswig
56: Holstein
57: Mecklenburg
58: Brandenburg
59: Pomerania
60: Sorbia
61: Silesia
62: Poland
63: Prussia
64: Deutschschweiz
65: Romandy
66: Ticino
67: Grisbunden
68: Val d'Aosta
69: Piemonte
70: Liguria
71: Lombardy
72: Trento
73: Veneto
74: Parma
75: Modena
76: Tuscany
77: Rome
78: Sardinia
79: Naples
80: Sicily
81: Malta
82: Slovakia
83: Hungary
84: Slovenia
85: Istria
86: Dalmatia
87: Croatia
88: Montenegro
89: Serbia
90: Bosnia
91: Albania
92: Slavic Macedonia
93: Bulgaria
94: Corfu
95: Kefalonia
96: Thrace
97: Greek Macedonia
98: Epirus
99: Peloponnese
100: Thessaly
101: Attica
102: Crete
103: Aegean Islands
104: Cyprus
105: Moldova
106: Transylvania
107: Wallachia
108: Szekler Land
109: Norway
110: Denmark
111: Jamtland
112: Varmland
113: Scania
114: Gotland
115: Sweden
116: Aland
117: Finland
118: Karelia
119: Ingria
120: Estonia
121: Latvia
122: Lithuania
123: Kola
124: Belarus
125: Ukraine
126: Crimea
127: Abkhazia
128: Ossetia
129: Georgia
130: Armenia

[IMPERIUM]

Beautiful!
How can such small regions ever wage war against each other?
How can their police force, lightly armed, ever threaten their neighbours?

One railway gauge throughout the Imperium - one road system.
One Euro currency backed by gold.
One overriding law ensuring Individual Rights.

This is the beauty of the Imperium IDEA.
An Imperium of Regions and Peoples - protected by one, Elite army.
The IDEA of Imperium Europa!

Imperium
0710

Gradually, the map will be extended Eastwards.

[Marco Polo]

Beautiful!
How can such small regions ever wage war against each other?
How can their police force, lightly armed, ever threaten their neighbours?

One railway gauge throughout the Imperium - one road system.
One Euro currency backed by gold.
One overriding law ensuring Individual Rights.

This is the beauty of the Imperium IDEA.
An Imperium of Regions and Peoples - protected by one, Elite army.
The IDEA of Imperium Europa!

Imperium
0710

Gradually, the map will be extended Eastwards.


simple! the english would do asw they have always done and nip off to france.

[Jurgenarius]

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9205/imperiummx4.png

I need to find better solution for names of Regions..

[IMPERIUM]

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9205/imperiummx4.png

I need to find better solution for names of Regions..
Well done for increasing the size of the map, Jurgenarius.
The Eastern part marked "Asian territory" is a misnomer and that description needs to be deleted.
Siberia, right up to Vladivostok is European - both Racially (to a large extent) - and Culturally.

Our Imperium will stretch from Ireland to Vladivostok.
Non Europids will be expelled over the Amur/Ussuri.
Once this is achieved, we will link up with Vinland, across the Bering Strait.

After 2012, when the new era is ushered, things will precipitate and crystalize.
IE will start forming and coagulating simultaneously all over the globe.
The transition will take 25 years - the first cycle.

Imperium
0710

[Jurgenarius]

Is it good at size?

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1396/imperiumhf6.png

The Green Part shows that its not part of the Imperium, The Grey means its part of the imperium and be shown on other map.

[IMPERIUM]

I think the map is very good now - the regions are shown clearly.
The North African littoral will have to be relenquished to the Muslims -
so long as they keep to within 12 miles from their coast (Mare Nostrum).

A grand accord with the Arab world will be easy to achieve.
Once we pluck that posoinous thorn from their side.
Our food for Arab oil and a repatriation programme - a symbiotic relationship.

The Arabs and their Maghreb will be our cordon sanitaire against the sub-Saharan blacks.
These last will be settled in the Congo Basin, where they will be free to revive their "culture".
White Africa will stretch from the Zambezi to Cape Agulhas - and form part of the Imperium.

Imperium
0710

[Jurgenarius]

What about the White Berber Tribes?

The Kabyles and the Riffians?

I have some information on them even pictures..

I know several amazigh which they want arabs out.

Even in the middle East, Lebanon and Syria especialy you could find blond people.. in lebanon, the Maronites are clearly whites.

[IMPERIUM]

What about the White Berber Tribes?

The Kabyles and the Riffians?

I have some information on them even pictures..

I know several amazigh which they want arabs out.

Even in the middle East, Lebanon and Syria especialy you could find blond people.. in lebanon, the Maronites are clearly whites.
They will have a choice to enter the fold of the Imperium - we will welcome them with open arms.
But we have to sacrifice the North African Litoral - in lieu of peace and oil with the Arab world.
Ci dispiace - ma non ce' niente da fare! - There is plenty of room within the planetary Imperium.

Imperium
0710

[Jurgenarius]

Understand.

Now, if you accept shall we start the "Asian" Part of the Imperium?

[IMPERIUM]

This is an ongoing excersise - hurry slowly!
We will build the Imperium, Region by Region.
Yes, we could start moving East.

Imperium
0710

[Jurgenarius]

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/2111/imperiumye9.png

I had arranged the Europe map.

Enjoy!

[IMPERIUM]

And we are enjoying your project, Jurgenarius.
This is the Imperium we envisage:
an Imperium of Regions and Peoples.

Imperium
0710

[Jurgenarius]

To start also the Central Asian part, I need to answer some questions to my self.

The Turkish Question, if we leave it as it is or reimpose the Treaty of Sevres back in frontier terms? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Sevres)

Central asian Republics, Persia and Afghanistan and frontiers with india.

if anyone could help it will be greatfull.

-JB

[Jurgenarius]

Ave!

Who is intrested in this project and wish to help in it how to discuss some borders and stuff for the map. I wish more some people who knows history and Geography. Who is intrested send me pm. Thank you.

:)

-JB

[Jurgenarius]

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1553/imperium2fu6.png

I made this map as an example for you. I thought like this..

The South Kuriles Island has been occupied by the Soviet Union since 1945 so they remain ours only if Japan pays a good price forthe land to us.

Central Asia is ours, Kazakhstan has a 2% German and Slavic Population.Who is non white has to leave Central Asia to China because they are Mongolians. Central Asia is also home to the Persians.

There is that Blue line, that marks the Old Tokharistan which were that proto-Celtics but for now it will not be part of the imperium.

Persia and Afghanistan you could find white people easily. And Pakistan also you could find But We must Create the Indus River as a Frontier with the Dravidics. We may has population exchange with the Indians that they give us the Pure whites that remain in north of India (They still exists) and we give them the Non Whites. We will be on the West of Indus while the Indians stay east. The Tigris will be also a frontier with the Arabs. and then it continue to Kurdistan according to the other map.

This is what I thought.

[Jurgenarius]

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh265/jurgenbriffa/Untitled.png
I had stoped mking the map of the imperium divided by Regions because i found that there is too many regions and somethimes you could even divide on the map. Regions are somthink that evolve by Time. :) So i made this...

[Kakios]

So, IMPERIVM EVROPA will only engulf the [post-]Christian world and its direct offshoots then? In other words, is Europid really a racial term? Was there some kind of genetic predisposition which made Europids accept Christianity?

[Marco Polo]

So, IMPERIVM EVROPA will only engulf the [post-]Christian world and its direct offshoots then? In other words, is Europid really a racial term? Was there some kind of genetic predisposition which made Europids accept Christianity?i think that its only wise to envelop those with similar cultural backgrounds. culture does play a part as well as race.

[Marco Polo]

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh265/jurgenbriffa/Untitled.png
I had stoped mking the map of the imperium divided by Regions because i found that there is too many regions and somethimes you could even divide on the map. Regions are somthink that evolve by Time. :) So i made this...

i disagree with dictating regions anyway. who is to say that france for example wants to break into regions? regions are best decided by the dominium sphere.

also im not too sure of that territory east of turkey. and am i seeing right with the western part of the anatolian peninsula?

there are other possibly questionable territories but its good as a general guide.

[Jurgenarius]

i disagree with dictating regions anyway. who is to say that france for example wants to break into regions? regions are best decided by the dominium sphere.

also im not too sure of that territory east of turkey. and am i seeing right with the western part of the anatolian peninsula?

there are other possibly questionable territories but its good as a general guide.

Indeed, We must let the Regions evolve alone. The Eastern Turkish Part is all about Pontian Greeks who are forced to be islamised in the 1920's, Armenians and Kurds, who are White people and speak European Language. I belive that the imperium also must overrun all of the persian world because there still remains white people there, but these people only need to bring back their old Culture. This could evolve.

[Marco Polo]

Indeed, We must let the Regions evolve alone. The Eastern Turkish Part is all about Pontian Greeks who are forced to be islamised in the 1920's, Armenians and Kurds, who are White people and speak European Language. I belive that the imperium also must overrun all of the persian world because there still remains white people there, but these people only need to bring back their old Culture. This could evolve.

i disagree on those then. if they are european then they need to evolve away from islamic cultures first.

to be honest, it might take decades to build imperium to the extent shown here. some areas are pretty alien

[Kakios]

Indeed, We must let the Regions evolve alone. The Eastern Turkish Part is all about Pontian Greeks who are forced to be islamised in the 1920's, Armenians and Kurds, who are White people and speak European Language. I belive that the imperium also must overrun all of the persian world because there still remains white people there, but these people only need to bring back their old Culture. This could evolve.
Why are Kurds white for example? Most Iranians, Indians, Pakistanis, Afghans and Tajiks also speak Indo-European languages. Maltese, Hungarians, Finns, Estonians, Livonians, Basques don't.

[IMPERIUM]

Indeed, We must let the Regions evolve alone. The Eastern Turkish Part is all about Pontian Greeks who are forced to be islamised in the 1920's, Armenians and Kurds, who are White people and speak European Language. I belive that the imperium also must overrun all of the persian world because there still remains white people there, but these people only need to bring back their old Culture. This could evolve.
Well done Jurgenarius for all your previous work on the regions -
also this panoramic view of our coming Imperium.
Within the Nova Europa group in Brussels, we shall have a whole department working on this project.

The sheer strength of the Imperium will draw those Whites residing outside it :
to wrench themselves free from their present condition and join their brothers, within.
Of course the Imperium will pressure, cajole, barter this freedom of fellow Whites - this will be a top foreign policy priority.

I agree that most of the Persian area will be ours.
Also, the entire coastline of Latin America : forcing the non-Whites into pockets of reservations inland.
Food will be our (-) and this can easily be achieved as the native Indians (Peru, Brazil etc.) are non-creative, passive.

In Africa, we could push our Zambesi border northwards - right up to the Benguela.
Africa is empty anyway : and (-) Indians from disgorging their millions within it.
The Black man will rapidly decline in numbers, through his inability to grow food.

Then we shall start populating these vast territories with our best sons and daughters.
A Spartan (-) programme will upbreed the Europid.
We will rectify the past 2,000 years of Spiritual degeneration.

And finally, we will go out into space - for the Solar System must be ours!
We will colonise the moon and Mars, to start with -
populating them with a special breed of men and women : adventurers and explorers.
Percival Lowell was right in 1896 when he declared that Mars is habitable.

Imperium
0804

[Jurgenarius]

Race and Language are different. A Nigerian (African) who speaks English is not English, While an Italian who speaks Arabic is not Arabic but an Italian, and i think there is more important thinks than language.

Thank you Norman, Yes Iran has many White people. They only have to remove the occupation that they has. Even in Afghanistan, you will find Blue Eyed people with Red Hair and speak indo European language all the way to Kashmir. Of Course not all of iran/Afghanistan is Europid, like france and Britain they has been invaded. Also in the Magreb you has few white berbers fighting for freedom, i knew several of them, and in Lebanon, Ancient Phonecia.

[Kakios]

Race and Language are different. A Nigerian (African) who speaks English is not English, While an Italian who speaks Arabic is not Arabic but an Italian, and i think there is more important thinks than language.
Of course, but you're the one claiming that "Armenians and Kurds, who are White people and speak European Language..."

[Jurgenarius]

Of course, but you're the one claiming that "Armenians and Kurds, who are White people and speak European Language..."

not all Armenians and kurds are white, but there is great number of them who are, and Both of them speaks Indo-European languages.

[Marco Polo]

Why are Kurds white for example? Most Iranians, Indians, Pakistanis, Afghans and Tajiks also speak Indo-European languages. Maltese, Hungarians, Finns, Estonians, Livonians, Basques don't.

its not as simple as race, culture or language alone. the guidelines are something called common sense.

[etoile noir]

Why are Kurds white for example? Most Iranians, Indians, Pakistanis, Afghans and Tajiks also speak Indo-European languages. Maltese, Hungarians, Finns, Estonians, Livonians, Basques don't.

what is your point kakios?
i saw the fairest / whitest people in the world, in morocco - the berbers. does that make them european? does it make them lesser / greater people? they have their way of life and they live according to their tribal ancestry, which is a good thing as long as it works for them.

would they be assimilable in europe? i don't think so. in fact i don't think it will work neither for them, nor for other europeans. and here please don't confuse europe with the new eurabia.

[Marco Polo]

what is your point kakios?
i saw the fairest / whitest people in the world, in morocco - the berbers. does that make them european? does it make them lesser / greater people? they have their way of life and they live according to their tribal ancestry, which is a good thing as long as it works for them.

would they be assimilable in europe? i don't think so. in fact i don't think it will work neither for them, nor for other europeans. and here please don't confuse europe with the new eurabia.

exactly. sometimes one cannot define. sometimes one must simply rely on what is common sense. who is culturally, racially, linguisticly european is of no matter. it is what people KNOW to be european that is. a lot of turks may be european in origin but we dont call them european.

[etoile noir]

a lot of turks may be european in origin but we dont call them european.

if those turks are moslem, then they are first moslem, then turk, hence they cannot ever be european for their culture, their creed, is their way of life.
now if kakios is of the opinion that european culture is moslem, then he will easily assimilate them :rolleyes:

[Jurgenarius]

The Turks, not all racialy are 100% European, Culturaly and Linguisticaly they are not European. But if a 'Turk' who is 100% European by race and ready to 'convert' by speak a European language and adopt European Culture, in my oppinion its not wrong. But i say it again he must be 100% European.

About the Iranians the story is very different, They are Cousins of the Europeans, same blood, same language, same Culture. only the islamic revolution send them back to medieval ages, in cultural terms.

[Kakios]

what is your point kakios?
i saw the fairest / whitest people in the world, in morocco - the berbers. does that make them european? does it make them lesser / greater people? they have their way of life and they live according to their tribal ancestry, which is a good thing as long as it works for them.

would they be assimilable in europe? i don't think so. in fact i don't think it will work neither for them, nor for other europeans. and here please don't confuse europe with the new eurabia.
My point? Don't think I have one. I simply asked why Kurds are White.

[Jurgenarius]

becuse they are so....

Why Africans is Black?

[Kakios]

*sigh*

Nevermind.

[etoile noir]

My point? Don't think I have one. I simply asked why Kurds are White. that's like asking why the chicken crossed the road :D

sorry if i'm sounding rude or whatever. you're a newbie here. eventually you'll get used to me - and the rest too ;)

[ComradeDTAII]

So...idea for a capital? Bruxelles? Paris? Berlin? Rome? Constantinople? Moscow? Or will the IE somehow not have an Imperial capital?

[Blood Axis]

Most certainly in IE there will be a spiritual capital which for Norman is Malta....and rightly so

[Jurgenarius]

So...idea for a capital? Bruxelles? Paris? Berlin? Rome? Constantinople? Moscow? Or will the IE somehow not have an Imperial capital?

It's Norman who can give us the Answer Comarade

:)

[Marco Polo]

So...idea for a capital? Bruxelles? Paris? Berlin? Rome? Constantinople? Moscow? Or will the IE somehow not have an Imperial capital?

vilinus, lithuania.

it is the closest city to the geographical centre of europe (a few km's south of vilinus)

to be honest it doesnt really matter.

[IMPERIUM]

Koenigsburg could be the Political centre for the Elite : the CORE group of twelve.
Berlin could be the political capital housing the Elite (Imperium) vast offices.
Rome could be the Cultural capital for the Imperium.
Melita: the Sacred Island would be the Spiritual centre for the Imperium.

On the Dominium side:
every Region will decide its own Regional Capital.

Imperium
0804

[Artist]

The Turks, not all racialy are 100% European, Culturaly and Linguisticaly they are not European. But if a 'Turk' who is 100% European by race and ready to 'convert' by speak a European language and adopt European Culture, in my oppinion its not wrong. But i say it again he must be 100% European.

About the Iranians the story is very different, They are Cousins of the Europeans, same blood, same language, same Culture. only the islamic revolution send them back to medieval ages, in cultural terms.

Could someone tell me who is 100% racially european, and what this means?

[Jurgenarius]

i would say a person who ia not mixed..

[Artist]

Take the example of Maltese genetic framework, we were under the colonisation of other nations and there was mixed breeding.

[Jurgenarius]

As i know we are Europeans, Mixed Europeans it could be, But as i know maltese never mixed with Africans or asians. and im not sure about Arabs.

[Artist]

It's true that in the past we didn't mix with asians and africans.
We were under the Arabs, so how could it be that we didn't mix with them?
This does not mean we are arabs ecc. ecc.
We are maltese, with our own characteristics.
A professior of genetics today was talking about our gentics.
Our gentics come primarily from the fenicians.

[Gladiator]

It's true that in the past we didn't mix with asians and africans.
We were under the Arabs, so how could it be that we didn't mix with them?
This does not mean we are arabs ecc. ecc.
We are maltese, with our own characteristics.
A professior of genetics today was talking about our gentics.
Our gentics come primarily from the fenicians.

You mean Phoenicians?:)

[Eurodip]

It's true that in the past we didn't mix with asians and africans.
We were under the Arabs, so how could it be that we didn't mix with them?
This does not mean we are arabs ecc. ecc.
We are maltese, with our own characteristics.
A professior of genetics today was talking about our gentics.
Our gentics come primarily from the fenicians.

Erm, could I just contribute my two eurocents? First of all this "Arab" crap is a misnomer. If anything, we should say "North African". The Arab ( i.e. population coming from the Arabian peninsula) element in the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb, Sicily and Al-Andalus was always a tiny minority. The majority of the invading Muslim armies were made up of the converted remaining Romano-Byzantine population, Berbers, Kabyles, and in the specific case of Al-Andalus, black African Almoravids. The "Arab" rubbish came about when that foreign policy genius Mintoff fell in love with the Arab League, and when some misguided geniuses made the assumption Language of Arabic origin = Arabs, which is complete bollocks.

God damn it, chaps, I've met gazillions of people from the Maghreb (as Sepp very well knows), and they have never, ever, introduced themselves by saying "I am an Arab". In most cases it's not even "Algerian", or "Moroccan", or "Tunisian", but "Berber" or "Kabyle", and they're fiercely proud of it, and proud of the fact that they are not "Arabs". So there you go. Bejaysus, some of us Maltese should stop getting their historical facts from Grajjet Malta.

Secondly, what we speak is not of Classical Arabic origin, so even allowing for the natural stupidity of most of our intellectuals, their "Language, duh, Arabic, therefore, duh, Arabs" argument is so wrong that you could give it a coat of paint and call it Red China Dock. We speak a language derived from the Arabo-local patois spoken in Sicily, which ditched most of the tenses in Classical Arabic, and kept just two, but how the hell did I end up talking about this?

This Arab Complex will never fricking go away. I can see myself still writing this stuff in the year 20goddamn50, and it seems to get worse as the years go by, as our cohorts of uncultured intellectuals attempt to fight "Racism", whatever that means, by an false "historical" statements. You know, chaps, The Poet once said that the only thing worse than Evil is Idiocy, and this is a case in point. Talk about navel-gazing, for goodness' sake. If the Maltese language is such a heavy millstone round our necks, then we should drop it, and stop talking bollocks. And ban our bints from using heavy make-up and "wet look" "side curtain tresses" hairstyles. There you go, my two-point plan for ridding us of the last traces of "Arab" in our national identity.

[etoile noir]

Erm, could I just contribute my two eurocents? First of all this "Arab" crap is a misnomer. If anything, we should say "North African". The Arab ( i.e. population coming from the Arabian peninsula) element in the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb, Sicily and Al-Andalus was always a tiny minority. The majority of the invading Muslim armies were made up of the converted remaining Romano-Byzantine population, Berbers, Kabyles, and in the specific case of Al-Andalus, black African Almoravids. The "Arab" rubbish came about when that foreign policy genius Mintoff fell in love with the Arab League, and when some misguided geniuses made the assumption Language of Arabic origin = Arabs, which is complete bollocks.

God damn it, chaps, I've met gazillions of people from the Maghreb (as Sepp very well knows), and they have never, ever, introduced themselves by saying "I am an Arab". In most cases it's not even "Algerian", or "Moroccan", or "Tunisian", but "Berber" or "Kabyle", and they're fiercely proud of it, and proud of the fact that they are not "Arabs". So there you go. Bejaysus, some of us Maltese should stop getting their historical facts from Grajjet Malta.

Secondly, what we speak is not of Classical Arabic origin, so even allowing for the natural stupidity of most of our intellectuals, their "Language, duh, Arabic, therefore, duh, Arabs" argument is so wrong that you could give it a coat of paint and call it Red China Dock. We speak a language derived from the Arabo-local patois spoken in Sicily, which ditched most of the tenses in Classical Arabic, and kept just two, but how the hell did I end up talking about this?

This Arab Complex will never fricking go away. I can see myself still writing this stuff in the year 20goddamn50, and it seems to get worse as the years go by, as our cohorts of uncultured intellectuals attempt to fight "Racism", whatever that means, by an false "historical" statements. You know, chaps, The Poet once said that the only thing worse than Evil is Idiocy, and this is a case in point. Talk about navel-gazing, for goodness' sake. If the Maltese language is such a heavy millstone round our necks, then we should drop it, and stop talking bollocks. And ban our bints from using heavy make-up and "wet look" "side curtain tresses" hairstyles. There you go, my two-point plan for ridding us of the last traces of "Arab" in our national identity.

i'll have whatever this one's having ;) :D

[Marco Polo]

Erm, could I just contribute my two eurocents? First of all this "Arab" crap is a misnomer. If anything, we should say "North African". The Arab ( i.e. population coming from the Arabian peninsula) element in the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb, Sicily and Al-Andalus was always a tiny minority. The majority of the invading Muslim armies were made up of the converted remaining Romano-Byzantine population, Berbers, Kabyles, and in the specific case of Al-Andalus, black African Almoravids. The "Arab" rubbish came about when that foreign policy genius Mintoff fell in love with the Arab League, and when some misguided geniuses made the assumption Language of Arabic origin = Arabs, which is complete bollocks.

God damn it, chaps, I've met gazillions of people from the Maghreb (as Sepp very well knows), and they have never, ever, introduced themselves by saying "I am an Arab". In most cases it's not even "Algerian", or "Moroccan", or "Tunisian", but "Berber" or "Kabyle", and they're fiercely proud of it, and proud of the fact that they are not "Arabs". So there you go. Bejaysus, some of us Maltese should stop getting their historical facts from Grajjet Malta.

Secondly, what we speak is not of Classical Arabic origin, so even allowing for the natural stupidity of most of our intellectuals, their "Language, duh, Arabic, therefore, duh, Arabs" argument is so wrong that you could give it a coat of paint and call it Red China Dock. We speak a language derived from the Arabo-local patois spoken in Sicily, which ditched most of the tenses in Classical Arabic, and kept just two, but how the hell did I end up talking about this?

This Arab Complex will never fricking go away. I can see myself still writing this stuff in the year 20goddamn50, and it seems to get worse as the years go by, as our cohorts of uncultured intellectuals attempt to fight "Racism", whatever that means, by an false "historical" statements. You know, chaps, The Poet once said that the only thing worse than Evil is Idiocy, and this is a case in point. Talk about navel-gazing, for goodness' sake. If the Maltese language is such a heavy millstone round our necks, then we should drop it, and stop talking bollocks. And ban our bints from using heavy make-up and "wet look" "side curtain tresses" hairstyles. There you go, my two-point plan for ridding us of the last traces of "Arab" in our national identity.

i agree.

can anyone really believe also that modern egyptians built the pyramids? todays arabs have all sorts of mixed blood in them. again this is another area where common sense should prevail. everyone knows that maltese are europeans that speak a tongue of arabic origin. if there is arab blood then it is a miniscule amount. there is more jewish blood in maltese than arab!

[Kakios]

can anyone really believe also that modern egyptians built the pyramids?
The genetic material of modern Egyptians is predominantly neolithic.

[Marco Polo]

The genetic material of modern Egyptians is predominantly neolithic.

are you trying to say that they have not mixed with others? one only has to look to the west, east and then south to see who they mixed with. one egyptian i worked with a couple of months ago looked nothing like tunisians or libyans i have met, or arabs for that matter. he was far darker even though he has been living in the north eu for years. he looked more like a somalian mixed with arab than pure arab.

[Eurodip]

Look, all I'm trying to say is it doesn't matter what your genes look like, because it's your culture that counts. It's not even your language.

Let me make it even simpler. Saviour Balzan says: "It is wrong for Norman Lowell to say nasty things about Africans, because we are Arabs." Saviour Balzan is hereuntofore making an idiotic statement.

Étoile, I'm having coffee. In large doses.

[Marco Polo]

Look, all I'm trying to say is it doesn't matter what your genes look like, because it's your culture that counts. It's not even your language.

Let me make it even simpler. Saviour Balzan says: "It is wrong for Norman Lowell to say nasty things about Africans, because we are Arabs." Saviour Balzan is hereuntofore making an idiotic statement.

Étoile, I'm having coffee. In large doses.

oh but it does!

it is a combination of the 3 that makes us who we are.

genes, language and culture are all important in defining a nation. negroes have been in america far longer than irish but irish are more 'american' than negroes are. and dont say negroes are poor either cos irish had nothing when they went over, just like maltese.

you have either got what it takes genetically, culturally and linguistically or you havent.

[Kakios]

are you trying to say that they have not mixed with others?
If they did, it was not genetically significant. People tend to overexaggerate the genetic ramifications of invasions. The Arab conquest of most of the world was primarily a cultural expansion, as Eurodip rightly pointed out.

one only has to look to the west, east and then south to see who they mixed with.
There obviously are regional differences which were also present in the Neolithic.

[Artist]

Erm, could I just contribute my two eurocents? First of all this "Arab" crap is a misnomer. If anything, we should say "North African". The Arab ( i.e. population coming from the Arabian peninsula) element in the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb, Sicily and Al-Andalus was always a tiny minority. The majority of the invading Muslim armies were made up of the converted remaining Romano-Byzantine population, Berbers, Kabyles, and in the specific case of Al-Andalus, black African Almoravids. The "Arab" rubbish came about when that foreign policy genius Mintoff fell in love with the Arab League, and when some misguided geniuses made the assumption Language of Arabic origin = Arabs, which is complete bollocks.

God damn it, chaps, I've met gazillions of people from the Maghreb (as Sepp very well knows), and they have never, ever, introduced themselves by saying "I am an Arab". In most cases it's not even "Algerian", or "Moroccan", or "Tunisian", but "Berber" or "Kabyle", and they're fiercely proud of it, and proud of the fact that they are not "Arabs". So there you go. Bejaysus, some of us Maltese should stop getting their historical facts from Grajjet Malta.

Secondly, what we speak is not of Classical Arabic origin, so even allowing for the natural stupidity of most of our intellectuals, their "Language, duh, Arabic, therefore, duh, Arabs" argument is so wrong that you could give it a coat of paint and call it Red China Dock. We speak a language derived from the Arabo-local patois spoken in Sicily, which ditched most of the tenses in Classical Arabic, and kept just two, but how the hell did I end up talking about this?

This Arab Complex will never fricking go away. I can see myself still writing this stuff in the year 20goddamn50, and it seems to get worse as the years go by, as our cohorts of uncultured intellectuals attempt to fight "Racism", whatever that means, by an false "historical" statements. You know, chaps, The Poet once said that the only thing worse than Evil is Idiocy, and this is a case in point. Talk about navel-gazing, for goodness' sake. If the Maltese language is such a heavy millstone round our necks, then we should drop it, and stop talking bollocks. And ban our bints from using heavy make-up and "wet look" "side curtain tresses" hairstyles. There you go, my two-point plan for ridding us of the last traces of "Arab" in our national identity.

You are right about some historical facts.

[Marco Polo]

If they did, it was not genetically significant. People tend to overexaggerate the genetic ramifications of invasions. The Arab conquest of most of the world was primarily a cultural expansion, as Eurodip rightly pointed out.


There obviously are regional differences which were also present in the Neolithic.

if the original people who developed the culture is destroyed or adulterated in some way then its culture will change thus will come probable collapse.

negroes and mestizos cannot build what white america built thus america will collapse as they grow in numbers. same happened with egypt.

as a matter of fact as arabs expanded they also adopted european culture too. what i mean is moors in this case. whenever they came across ruins of roman aquaducts they renovated and reused. arab culture also destroyed roman methods of road networking as they did not require straight roads.

[Artist]

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art168.htm

Sicilian Peoples: The Arabs

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art168a.gifThey ruled Sicily for two centuries and a few decades but their influence was nothing short of monumental. Under their administration, the island's population doubled as dozens of towns were founded and cities repopulated. The Arabs changed Sicilian agriculture and cuisine. Their scientific and engineering achievements were remarkable. More significantly, they changed society itself. To this day, many Sicilian social attitudes reflect the profound influence --often in subtle ways-- of the Arabs who ruled a thousand years ago but who (with the Greeks (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art153.htm) and others) are the ancestors of today's Sicilians.
The Arabs, who in medieval times were sometimes called "Saracens" or "Moors," have been identified since antiquity (in Assyrian records dated to circa 850 BC), but until the Middle Ages they were not unified as a people. In the Early Middle Ages, it was Islam that united the Arabs and established the framework of Arab law. Initially, most Muslims were Arabs, and during the Arab rule of Sicily their Islamic faith was closely identified with them. (Even today, many principles believed to be tenets of Islam are, in fact, Arab practices unrelated to Muslim ethics.) The rapid growth of Arab culture could be said to parallel the dissemination of Islam. Except for some poetry, the first major work of literature published entirely in Arabic was the Koran (Quran), the holy book of Islam, and one may loosely define Arabs by the regions where Arabic was spoken in the Middle Ages and afterwards. Arabs were a Semitic people of the Middle East. The Berbers of northwest Africa and the Sahara were not Arabs, though many converted to Islam, adopted Arabic as their language and assimilated with Arab society. Though most parts of Sicily were conquered by Arabs, certain areas where settled by people who, strictly speaking, were Muslim Berbers. Like many Berbers, some Arabs were nomadic.
With the emergence of the Byzantine Empire (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art165.htm), groups of Arabs lived in bordering areas in the Arabian peninsula and parts of what are now Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan and Egypt. Their language, Arabic, is a Semitic tongue of various dialects related to Hebrew and Ethiopic, written in script from right to left.
Muhammad (the Prophet of Islam) was born in Mecca around AD 570 and his religious community at Medina eventually grew to dominate the entire Arabian peninsula. Following Muhammad's death in 632, caliphs (civil and religious leaders) succeeded him. Three families from Muhammad's tribe ruled the expanding Arabian empire for the next few centuries, namely the Umayyads (661-750), the Abbasids (750-850) and the Alids (Fatimid dynasty in northern Africa from 909 to 1171). In practice, certain regions --including Sicily-- were actually controlled by particular (if minor) families, or often under local emirs (there were several in Sicily when the Normans arrived in 1061).
Initially, the Arabs aspired to little more than some productive land in coastal areas and around the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East, but within decades of the Prophet's death their objectives grew greater. With the growth of their society supported by conversions to Islam, the wealth sought by Arabs was precisely that which the Koran (3:14) discouraged: "The passion for women, the desire for male children, the thirst for gold and silver, spirited horses, and the possession of cattle and land, in fact all the pleasures of life on earth." Sicily offered all of these things in abundance.
By 650, the Arabs were making their way through Libya and Tunisia, and http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art168b.gifwhat remained of the once-prosperous city of Carthage was destroyed in 698. The Byzantines (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art165.htm) had already lost these areas, but they retained control of Sicily --despite numerous raids by Arab pirates-- until 827. In that year, Euphemius, a Byzantine admiral and resident governor of Sicily who found himself at odds with the Emperor, offered the governorship of the island to Ziyadat Allah, the Aghlabid Emir of Al Qayrawan (in Tunisia) in exchange for his support. This fiasco resulted in the landing of over ten thousand Arab and Berber troops at Mazara in the western part of Sicily. Euphemius was soon killed and Sicily's Arab period had begun.
Three Arab dynasties ruled Sicily --first the Aghlabids (a "minor" family based in Tunisia which had broken away from the Abbasids of Baghdad) and then, from 909, the Fatimids, who entrusted much of their authority to the Kalbids in 948. In that year, Hassan al-Kalbi became the first Emir of All Sicily. By 969, the Fatimid dynasty (descended from the Prophet's daughter, Fatima) were moving their geographic center of power to Cairo, leaving their Tunisian capitals (Madiyah and Al Quayrawan) and western territories to the care of what in Europe would be called "vassals."
Islam spread quickly across the Mediterranean but in Sicily the Arabs' conquest was a slow one. Panormos, which was to become the seat of an emirate as Bal'harm (Palermo) in 948, fell in 832. Messina was taken in 843. Enna (the Arabs' Kasr' Yanni, also an emirate) was conquered in 858. With the violent fall of Syracuse in 878, the conquest was essentially complete, though Taormina and several other mountaintop communities held out for a few more years.
Byzantine society, culture and government were closely identified with Christianity, and the law was based largely (though not entirely) on Judeo-Christian ideas, but it would have been mistaken to consider the Byzantine state a theocracy. Moreover, as Christianity already existed in many regions (such as Sicily) in the Byzantine Empire, there was not always a need to introduce (or impose) it. Islam, however, was a way of life that could not easily be separated from society itself, and it was a religion formerly unknown in Sicily. This obviously influenced Arab society in Sicily and elsewhere, though efforts were made to retain something of the established order. In the early ninth century, Islam itself could be said to be in its formative stages socially, with certain literary sources (collections of hadiths containing sunnahs or "laws") still being written.
Arab administration, if not particularly enlightened, was not very harsh by medieval standards, but it was far from egalitarian. Sicily's Christians and Jews (Sicily was at least half Muslim by 1060) were highly taxed, and clergy could not recite from the Bible or Talmud within earshot of Muslims. Christian and Jewish women (who like Muslim ones were veiled in public) could not share the public baths with Muslim women --many of whom were ex-Christians converted to Islam to contract financially or socially advantageous marriages to Muslim men. Non-Muslims had to stand in the presence of Muslims. New churches and synagogues could not be built, nor Muslims converted to other faiths. A number of large churches, such as the cathedral of Palermo, were converted to mosques. (The Arabic inscription shown above is still visible on one of its columns.)
A degree of religious tolerance prevailed; there were no forced conversions. Yet, a new social order was soon in place. Except for a few merchants and sailors, there had been very few Muslim Arabs in Sicily before 827, but Byzantine legal strictures imposed upon them, and upon the Jews living across the island, cannot be said to have been as rigid as those imposed upon non-Muslims by the Arabs after about 850. At first, however, many Sicilians probably welcomed the prospect of change because they had been overtaxed and over-governed by their Byzantine rulers.
The Arabs introduced superior irrigation systems; some of their qanats (channels) still flow under Palermo. They established the Sicilian silk (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art134.htm) industry, and at the court of the Norman monarch Roger II (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art124.htm) great Arab thinkers like the geographer Abdullah al Idrisi (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art91.htm) were welcome. Agriculture became more varied and more efficient, with the widespread introduction of rice, sugar cane (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art143.htm), cotton and oranges (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art90.htm). This, in turn, influenced Sicilian cuisine. Many of the most popular Sicilian foods trace their origins to the Arab period.
Dozens of towns were founded or resettled during the Saracen era, and souks (suks, or street markets (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art85.htm)) became more common than before. Bal'harm (Palermo) was repopulated and became one of the largest Arab cities after Baghdad and Cordoba (Cordova), and one of the most beautiful. Construction on Bal'harm's al-Khalesa district built near the sea was begun in 937 by Khalid Ibn Ishaq, who was then Governor of Sicily. Despite later estimates of a greater population, there were probably about two hundred thousand residents in and around this city by 1050, and it was the capital of Saracen Sicily. Bal'harm was the official residence of the Governors and Emirs of All Sicily, and al-Khalesa (now the Kalsa district) was its administrative center. As we've mentioned, in 948 the Fatimids granted a degree of autonomy to the Kalbid dynasty, whose last "governor" (effectively a hereditary emir), Hasan II (or Al-Samsan), ruled until 1053. By then, Kasyr Yanni (Enna), Trapani, Taormina and Syracuse were also self-declared, localized "emirates." (This word was sometimes used rather loosely to describe any hereditary ruler of a large locality; in law Sicily had been a unified emirate governed from Palermo since 948, but by the 1050s the others had challenged his authority over them.)
Naturally, Arabic was widely spoken and it was a major influence on Sicilian, which emerged as a Romance (Latin) language during the subsequent (Norman) era. The Sicilian vernacular was in constant evolution, but until the arrival of the Arabs the most popular language in Sicily was a dialect of Greek. Under the Moors Sicily actually became a polyglot community; some localities were more Greek-speaking while others were predominantly Arabic-speaking. Mosques stood alongside churches and synagogues.
Arab Sicily, by 948 governed from Bal'harm with little intervention from Qayrawan (Kairouan), was one of Europe's most prosperous regions --intellectually, artistically and economically. (At the same time, Moorish Spain was comparable to Sicily in these respects, but its prior society had been essentially Visigothic rather than Byzantine.) With the exception of occasional landings in Calabria, the Sicilian Arabs coexisted peacefully with the peoples of the Italian peninsula. These were Lombards (Longobard descendants) and Byzantines in Calabria, Basilicata and Apulia, where Bari was the largest city.
Under the Byzantines' empire, Sicily enjoyed some contact with the East, but as part of a larger Arab empire having greater contact with China and India, Far Eastern developments such as paper (made from cotton or wood), the compass and Arabic numerals (actually Indian) arrived. So did Arab inventions, such as henna --though today's middle-class Sicilian obsession with artficial blondness is a twentieth-century phenomenon. Under the Arabs, Sicily and Spain found themselves highly developed compared to England and Continental northern Europe.
Byzantium hadn't forgotten Sicily, and in 1040 George Maniakes, at the head of an army of Byzantine-Greeks, Normans, Vikings and Lombards, attempted an invasion of Sicily without success. By the 1050s, the Pope, and some Norman knights from this failed adventure, were casting a long glance toward Sicily with an eye to conquest. This desire was later fueled by dissension among the island's Arabs, leading to support by the Emir of Syracuse for the Normans against the emirates of Enna and http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art165c.gifPalermo. Most of these internal problems developed after the ruling Fatimids moved their capital from Tunisia to Egypt, where they established Cairo (near ancient Memphis).
The Normans conquered Messina in 1061 and reached the gates of Palermo (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art139.htm) a decade later, removing from power the local emir, Yusuf Ibn Abdallah, but respecting Arab customs. Their conquest of Arab Sicily was slower than their conquest of Saxon England, which began in 1066 with the Battle of Hastings. Kasr Yanni was still ruled by its emir, Ibn Al-Hawas, who held out for years. His successor, Ibn Hamud, surrendered, and converted to Christianity, only in 1087. Initially, and for over a century, the Normans' Sicilian kingdom was the medieval epitome of multicultural tolerance. By 1200, this was beginning to change. While the Muslim-Arab influence continued well into the Norman era --particularly in art and architecture-- it was not to endure. The Normans gradually "Latinized" Sicily, and this social process laid the groundwork for the introduction of Catholicism (as opposed to eastern Orthodoxy). Widespread conversion ensued, and by the 1280s there were few --if any-- Muslims in Sicily. Yet, the mass immigration of north-African Arabs (and Berbers) was the greatest Sicilian immigration since that of the ancient Greeks (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art153.htm), leaving today's Sicilians as Saracen as Hellenic.
While Norman government and law in Sicily were essentially European, introducing institutions such as the feudal system, at first they were profoundly influenced by Arab (and even Islamic) practices. Many statutes were universal, but in the earliest Norman period each Sicilian --Muslim, Christian, Jew-- was judged by the laws of his or her own faith.
When did the various Sicilian localities cease to be Arab (or Byzantine Greek)? There was not an immediate change. Following the Norman conquest, complete Latinization, fostered largely by the Roman Church and its liturgy, took the better part of two centuries, and even then there remained pockets of Byzantine influence in northeastern Sicily (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art95.htm)'s Nebrodi Mountains.
Had the Normans not conquered Sicily, it might have evolved into an essentially Arab society not unlike that which survived in some parts of Spain into the later centuries of the Middle Ages, and the Sicilian vernacular language (as we know it) would have developed later. It is interesting to consider that general functional literacy among Sicilians was higher in 870 under the Arabs and Byzantines than it was in 1870 under the Italians (at about seventeen percent). In certain social respects, nineteenth-century Sicily still seemed very Arab, especially outside the largest cities, well into the early years of the twentieth century.
About the Author: Palermo native Vincenzo Salerno has written biographies of several famous Sicilians, including Frederick II and Giuseppe di Lampedusa.

Top of Page (http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art168.htm#top)


© 2005 Vincenzo Salerno

[Artist]

A good book to read is Malta (The Medieval Millennium) written by Charles Dalli.

[Eurodip]

A good book to read is Malta (The Medieval Millennium) written by Charles Dalli.

Qrajtu. Minn qoxra sa qoxra. Hasra li l-editur ma hallihx jitfa' citations ghal sorsi (ghal xi raguni inesplikabbli). L-artist's reconstructions fihom inezattezzi, imma l-bqija l-ktieb huwa eccellenti.

[Artist]

Anki z-zewg kotba l-ohra huma tajbin u ricerkati sew, kemm dak ta' David H. Trump 'Malta Prehistory and Temples', kif ukoll ta' Anthony Bonanno 'Malta Phonician, Punic and Roman.

[Eurodip]

Anki z-zewg kotba l-ohra huma tajbin u ricerkati sew, kemm dak ta' David H. Trump 'Malta Prehistory and Temples', kif ukoll ta' Anthony Bonanno 'Malta Phonician, Punic and Roman.

Il-bibbja ghall-perjodu medjevali tibqa' "Studies in Medieval Malta", ta' Anthony Luttrell. Li nixtieq nara huma kotba b'daqsxejn iktar artist's reconstructions. Kif kienet tghid Alice in Wonderland, ktieb minghajr stampi m'huwa xejn, u l-illustrations fil-Grajjet Malta qishom il-corned beef ta' zmien l-import substitution, 'kk tafu x'irrid nghid.

[baralleine]

Dr. Anthony Bonanno is trash, I'm sorry to say. He's head of the Archeology Dept. at the University of Malta. He's also a creationist and bible literalist, thoroughly incompatible with being an archeologist today. He also insists vehemently and without direct evidence that the Neolithic Maltese did not worship a goddess, but a god and a holy family/trinity that he implies was a sort of natural religion that instinctively preceded Christianity.

[Marco Polo]

Dr. Anthony Bonanno is trash, I'm sorry to say. He's head of the Archeology Dept. at the University of Malta. He's also a creationist and bible literalist, thoroughly incompatible with being an archeologist today. He also insists vehemently and without direct evidence that the Neolithic Maltese did not worship a goddess, but a god and a holy family/trinity that he implies was a sort of natural religion that instinctively preceded Christianity.

proffesur tal bigilla?

[Kakios]

He also insists vehemently and without direct evidence that the Neolithic Maltese did not worship a goddess
Some modern archaeologists and mythologists are also questioning goddess worship on the basis that the interpretations which led to this belief may also contain some monotheistic bias due to the portrayal of polytheism as a mere transition between matriarchal and patriarchal monotheism of the proto-Europeans and Indo-Europeans respectively. There are additional modern socio-cultural trends (feminism, aquarianism) involved.

[Artist]

Dr. Anthony Bonanno is trash, I'm sorry to say. He's head of the Archeology Dept. at the University of Malta. He's also a creationist and bible literalist, thoroughly incompatible with being an archeologist today. He also insists vehemently and without direct evidence that the Neolithic Maltese did not worship a goddess, but a god and a holy family/trinity that he implies was a sort of natural religion that instinctively preceded Christianity.


http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/Goddess.html

Will the "Great Goddess" Resurface?:Reflections in Neolithic Europe
Many enthusiasts of the recent "Great Goddess" movement are looking to archaeology in the hopes that it will provide validation to their theories of what they would consider a former religious and societal utopia. This was allegedly a peace-loving, egalitarian society spread across the whole of Europe, wherein the Mother Goddess was worshipped as the center of religion. http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/02.jpegAs evidence from archaeology, thousands of artifacts from Neolithic Europe have been discovered, mostly in the form of female figurines. Although much criticism has come about against the recent 'goddess' movement, it has, however, contributed to opening the minds of many archaeologists and the terms that have been used to define civilization. Proponents claim that this new view of ancient civilization is now emerging because females are finally getting a voice in the male-dominated field of archaeology. They insist that the field is becoming more objective with both genders contributing, while challengers criticize the methodology used in this new position with the belief that the interpretation of archaeological finds is being based on the feminist agenda. Critics also site the need of many believers to establish the Great Goddess in the past so that she may resurface today as a contributor to modern paganism.
The leading pioneer of the goddess movement is the archaeologist Marija Gimbutas (http://152.175.1.205/NIGimbutas.html), who has spent thirty years studying patterns and symbols of cult objects and also developed the field she refers to as "archeomythology," which embodies the fields of archaeology, comparative mythology, and folklore. http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/08.jpeg She believes that the key to discovering the meaning of prehistory is through interdisciplinary research. Gimbutas' The Language of the Goddess is a subject of great controversy in archaeology due to her many inferences about the symbols on artifacts: "the technique of arguing back from her theory to the meaning of artifacts, so that anything fits her case . . . the imputation of 'religious' significance to any artifact that resembles an organism" (Linnekin 4). Archaeologist Ruth Tringham has also criticized Gimbutas' methods in that she twists the facts and loosely interprets them to fit her feminist agenda without restraint: " [using figurines] she has shown to her own satisfaction the contrast between the 'peaceful character of . . . Old Europe' and that of the society which destroyed it" (Tringham 96). Gimbutas assesses that there are two religious systems: the matristic gylanic (peaceful goddess society) and the androcratic (belligerent patriarchies). The matristic gylanic symbols are further divided into subsystems according to the function of the goddess as Life-giving, Renewing and Eternal Earth, Death and Regeneration, or Energy and Unfolding.
As water is an archetype from where all life flows, Gimbutas claims it to be representative of the Mother Goddess as the Life-Giver. The earliest symbol in human history is the zig-zag, which was used by Neanderthals around 40,000 B.C. and to Gimbutas, represents water. The 'M' is interpreted as a shorthand for the zig-zag. Another category of symbols she attributes to the religion of the Goddess is the chevron and 'v' symbols, which are supposed to represent the Bird Goddess. The 'V' is reported to be a shorthand version of the pubic triangle (represents shape of the fallopian tubes) which is found on many bird figurines. It first arose in the Thessalian Sesklo culture in the 7th millennium B.C. on painted pottery, and is also found in early Starcevo and Karanovo cultures (Balkans) during the 6th millennium. [IMG]http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/barbacena.jpg[/IMG] Bird-shaped vases called askoi are found with the 'V' and chevron sign, as are bird-woman hybrids with beaks and 'V' necklaces (Gimbutas [U]Language[/U]). On the island of Malta, graves from 3,000 B.C. were discovered containing these bird-woman hybrids in the Tarxien cremation cemetery, suggesting religious ties to the bird-woman figurines. The Bird Goddess is also identified with megalithic monuments, which may have been prayed to and embraced. There have also been grave goods identified with the Bird Goddess, such as the tomb in Orkney containing 725 bird bones (Everson 3). The Mother Goddess is not only associated with the bird but with many other animals as well. For example, the way the eyes of some females has been portrayed on figurines like those of the owl leads Gimbutas to the conclusion that the Mother Goddess can be identified with it. The 'M' is another shorthand for the zig-zag. The 'V' symbol is also found on ritual vases, lamps, seals, and miniature vessels, while the 'M' is found on water containers. Again, Gimbutas attributes this as evidence that the 'M' is the symbol for water. The chevron (repetitive form of the 'V') is often found along with the meander, which is also a water symbol. In support of the [COLOR=#0066cc]Goddess Revival (http://chief.anth.uconn.edu/classes/anth298_s98/Week2.html), links to the Goddess cult can be traced to such artifacts as ornithomorphic female figurines with their fronts engraved as chevrons and their posteriors as meanders. Other artifacts such as the ivory plaque from Paleolithic Mezin also display an interweaving of the meander and chevron. A Paleolithic Pavlovian and a Vincan figurine from 5000-4500 B.C. also link the Goddess to water as it represents an alleged female deity with a stream running over her body. As one can see, many of these symbols seem to be interpreted too subjectively. A paragon for this is Gimbutas' interpretation that the bull head represents the goddess because it is shaped like the uterus. Clearly, there is no scientific evidence to justify such claims, but what many of Gimbutas' critics fail to realize is that she does not present her claims as facts, but rather as simple hypotheses.[/COLOR]
In a time when survival of elements was a constant struggle, life seemed to be a miracle and those able to hold on to it persisted to preserve it and defend it through procreation. These struggles gave the role of the Goddess as Renewing and Eternal Earth special importance. The Earth Mother or Fertility Goddess is often represented as a pregnant woman holding her belly in figurines such as those of Laussel, Dordogne, France, and the Ukraine, which were most prominent from 7000-6000 B.C. [IMG]http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/kjre0225.gif[/IMG] The pregnant figurines often have bi-lines (two strokes) on their bodies, which Gimbutas states is probably symbolism of the power of mother and child. The lozenge containing a dot is also found on pregnant figurines, especially the belly, which Gimbutas interprets as the child within the womb. In the Vincan culture, the pregnant figurines wear sow masks, representative of the sow identification with fertility as a fast-growing, nourishing body. Gimbutas makes the claim that the graves of Neolithic Europeans were modeled after the female's uterus so that the buried dead could feel like they were in the womb of their Earth Mother. Gimbutas, however, provides no realistic evidence for this claim only citing that graves are sometimes egg-shaped. Even further fetched is the assertion that because some caves were painted entirely red it was for the purpose of representing the "the color of the Mother's regenerative organs" (Gimbutas [U]Language[/U] 151). Also representative of the role as Fertility Goddess are the duplication symbols, in the form of animals that shed their skin such as snakes or in the form of double yoke eggs.
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/luffang-face.gifCultures all throughout Europe participated in this proposed "Great Goddess" or "[COLOR=#0066cc]Mother Goddess (http://www.turknet.com/atlas/97april/catalhoyuk/page4.html)" religion, with the women as spiritual leaders, not necessarily political or social leaders. In Gimbutas' The Civilization of the Goddess, she details all the sites that to her knowledge have evidence of goddess worship. The Sesklo culture of northern Greece, she believes, left evidence behind of goddess worship in the form of pottery and sculptural art. Pottery from around 6400 B.C. on had designs of flames, triangles, zigzags, lozenges, and steps painted on them, which Gimbutas believed to all be symbols of the Great Goddess, especially in her domain of water as the Bird and Snake Goddess. Of the 200 clay figurines found at Achilleion, 132 were found within temples. Proponents point out the similarities of the Goddess across Europe to prove its universal appeal: "That the adoration of the Great Mother in fact was a living faith in the entire continent from the earliest times is evidenced not only in the . . . cult figure but is further supported by . . . early figurines having painting of red ochre" (Nagar 9). Apparently this painting of red ochre is still practiced today in some religious rituals, showing religious connections with the feminine figurines. Gimbutas claimed only the locations of the worship vary, not the Goddess they worship. The Pregnant Goddess was always found on a dais or near a bread oven and Gimbutas concluded that some forms of the Goddess were worshipped in temples, while others were worshipped in courtyards (Pregnant Goddess). The Starcevo Culture of the Central Balkans had elaborate pottery in the form of ornithomorphic vases from 5900-5800 B.C. Many figurines of the Karanovo culture were also discovered, including forms of the Bird Goddess, the pregnant goddess, stiff nudes, and zoomorphic figurines.[/COLOR]
Death was not always something to be feared in ancient cultures because regeneration provides the insight that from death comes life. One of the more obvious symbols of death comes in the form of the vulture. Paintings from temples in Catal Hoyuk depict the vulture devouring heads of corpses. The vulture seems to be a hybrid and, therefore, possibly the Goddess because it has human legs. The Goddess as a symbol of death is represented as an owl as represented in Hungary and Lemnos by owl-shaped burial urns with umbilical cords or human vulva dating back to 3000 B.C. Death can also be seen in the form of the stiff nude. Because it is almost always carved out of bone or ivory, Gimbutas has assumed the stiff nude to be representative of death on the basis that the color white is associated with the bone (that which shows after death). Stiff nudes can be found in Hamangia, Karanovo, and Cucuteni cultures. The Goddess mask provides a direct connection to death in the case of Karanavo cemetery of Bulgaria.[IMG]http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/guadancil.gif[/IMG] Here, 16 out of 81 graves were found to have masks (with no human remains) of the Goddess' face, dating back to 4,000 B.C. As for regeneration, the egg is one of the most obvious symbols, which is still present today. Most cultures use eggs in some form or another to celebrate the coming of spring and the renewal of growth. The egg can be found on vases, water containers, figurines, and bowls. It is sometimes found in relation to water and the bull. A dish from Malta contains all three of these Goddess symbols, dating back to 3,000 B.C. (Gimbutas [U]Language[/U]). Snakes, caterpillars, and any animal that sheds a former body or skin are other examples of the Goddess as Regeneration. These can be found in association with many Goddess symbols on vases.

The Goddess as Energy and Unfolding has symbols that "moving up, down, or in a circle, they symbolize cyclical time. The pulse of life demands an unending stream of vital energy to keep it going" (Gimbutas [U]Language[/U] 277). The spiral is a representation of the snake, which is an archetype for the cyclical mode of life. The spiral first arrived as a symbol on pottery in 7th millennium south-eastern Europe. Spirals will sometimes have life branch out from them in the form of leaves and branches, like those of the megalith temples from Malta (3000 B.C.) Spirals are often located on uniquely feminine body parts in figurines such as the breasts and uterus. The hook is a shortened version of the spiral and can be found on megalithic tombs of western Europe. Symbols of the moon and lunar cycle are found with snake coils, owl-shaped figurines, and bull's horns, linking them all together under the Goddess. The axe, yet another symbol of the renewal of life, was not used for a weapon or tool but rather for cult ritual purposes according to Gimbutas. It can be found decorated with the Goddess symbols of triangles and chevrons. Whirls are considered to represent life becoming, as are opposed snakes, both of which can be found on the breasts and abdomen of the female figurine. The opposing snakes are one of the most common motifs on Neolithic vases with a snake on either side of the opening and can be seen especially in Cucuteni vase painting. The brush (parallel lines) as a symbol of energy can sometimes be seen as a replacement for the pubic triangle, associating energy with the Great Goddess.
Gimbutas is criticized for using the survivalist theory, citing that cultures in Europe that were isolated from the rest of Europe amidst the Indo-European invasion maintained the Goddess religion. An example of a currently isolated culture is in [COLOR=#0066cc]Basque (http://www.indigo.ie/egt/misc/basque-jies/basque-jies.html) country, where they revere their primary deity Mari much as Gimbutas has predicted (Everson 3). Although there may be similarities in forms of the Goddess throughout cultures, this need not apply a similarity in function. Folklorist Juliet Woods warns against focusing on "rural and fringe societies as preserving survivals of earlier periods . . . [as] they are outside mainstream culture" because Gimbutas' references lack context (Wood 20). She also points out that customs can originate in modern times and then criticizes Gimbutas' example of thehttp://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/07.jpeg Celts as a pre-Indo-European Goddess culture because many current archaeological theories maintain that the Celts may have been a central part of Indo-European life. Anthropologists are also turning to the so-called "fringe cultures" such as the modern foraging and horticulture societies for proof of the goddess civilization's persistence: "cultures do not seem to be aware of the male role in procreation" (Aelfric 3). They speculate that for these cultures life seems to originate within the female alone, which would lead them to become the leaders of society pleasing those of the feminist spirituality movement (http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/2042/sacred.html). This may be the case but it is unscientific to conclude that because some modern fringe cultures revere the female as more powerful than our own that those of 8,000 years ago did. A culture may worship the "Great Goddess" and therefore consider females as the creators of all life, while another culture may believe females to be the only creators of life but not necessarily believe in the "Great Goddess." One need not imply the other.[/COLOR]
Criticisms aside, some of the most compelling evidence for this former goddess-worshipping culture is from a site in Turkey called Catal Hoyuk (http://www.focusmm.com/civcty/cathyk08.htm). Here, an alter and temple dating back to 7000 B.C. with many clay figurines of the Great Goddess, an idol, and wall paintings depicting some of her symbols, such as the bull, provide signs of former goddess worship (Everest 1). The cult of Magna Mater (Great Mother) supposedly originated in Catal Hoyuk 6000 years ago. The famous statue of a woman giving birth upon a throne with two leopards at her side is also found here, which is the form she is known for in Phrygia as Cybele. Later in Rome, Cybele would come to be known as Magna Mater, the magical goddess raised by panthers and lions. The leaders of the Magna Mater cult were female priestesses and castrated male priests called Galli (their leader - Archigalli). The castration was a symbol of Magna Mater's love, the mortal prince Attis, who couldn't withstand the love of an immortal and, therefore, went mad and castrated himself.http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~gloria/ctlhy_22.gif His castration, however, brought new life to the land. Another account claims Attis was sought after by a "lustful monster and, in revulsion and lest he be forced into unfaithfulness to his Holy Mother , tore his genitals from his body and died" (Leeming and Page 82 - 83). Every spring Cybele buries him in a dark cave (uterus) and mourns after his death. Part of the Magna Mater (http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/Mage/magna.html) cult rituals was to castrate and sacrifice a bull and be baptized in its blood (Sandberg 2), which along with Gimbutas' far- fetched idea that the bull head appears like a uterus, also provides a basis for the bull as a symbol of the Great Mother.
Presuming a Goddess culture existed, the disappearance of this peaceful agricultural society has been linked to the Indo-European invasion of war-like patriarchal hierarchy societies. Archaeological evidence, mythology, and comparative linguistics indicate a contrast and conflict of the two cultures in religious and secular life. The semi nomadic invaders, labeled as "Kurgans", were from southern Russia and first arrived in the Lower Dneiper region in 5,000 B.C. and would continue to arrive for 2,000 years. The migration occurred in three surges termed by Russian archaeologists: the first "early Yamna" culture of the Volga steppe was from 4400-4300 B.C., the second "Maikop" culture of the North Pontic area was around 3500 B.C., and the third "late Yamna" also of the Volga steppe was after 3000 B.C. Prior to 4500-4300 B.C., neither weapons were found among grave goods nor were hilltop defenses to be found until the Indo-Europeans arrived with metallurgy and weapons such as daggers, spears, and bow and arrows (Gimbutas Civilization 352). Some archaeologists, however, have found that weapons already existed in the former non-Indo-European cultures: "Mellaart reports that male burials at Catal Hoyuk contained weapons: stone maceheads, obsidian arrowheads and javelin heads, also daggers" (Linnekin 2). Some critics point out that "[later] cultures which still engaged in goddess worship were warlike", citing the Celtics as an example (Miller). Evidence for the appearance of the Kurgans and characteristics unique to them appear in a wide range of archaeological evidence. The earliest example of horses represented in sculpture were found in cemeteries from the Volga region dating back to 5,000 B.C. around when Kurgans arrived in Old Europe. Flint and stone daggers can be found in the cemetery of S'ezzhee after the arrival of the Kurgans, along with a unique burial style (Gimbutas Civilization 355). They made pit graves with huts of wood or stone covered by mounds, that were not seen in Neolithic Europe before their arrival. The Kurgans also supposedly brought with them the patriarchy, which would come to replace the peaceful egalitarian system. Although evidence for the Goddess culture is still uncertain, the resurfacing of the goddess will depend on archaeological evidence's validity. New feminist views in archaeology have, however, made many archaeologists re-evaluate their concepts of civilization. Whether the "Great Goddess" cult was a matriarchy or not, it is clear that evolution of civilization does not necessarily mean a shift towards patriarchy.

[ensam_varg]

We must delineate the Regions that will form the coming Imperium.
This is most important - with Ethnic and geographical boundaries especially so.

Exactly! First region we should cut out of our map of regions should be Turkey - such a region should have nothing to do with Europids.

[Jurgenarius]

The List of regions and people in europe wh want to be free is getting bigger...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stateless_ethnic_groups

[ogenoct]

First region we should cut out of our map of regions should be Turkey - such a region should have nothing to do with Europids.

A lot of Turks are Europids. The descendants of the Janissaries, for example. Ataturk was one of them. He had blonde hair and blue eyes.

Constantin

[Jurgenarius]

Those people i wouldn't consider them 'Turks' because we need to remember during the collapse of the ottoman empire, Turks forced the Pontic Greek people and the Western Armenian, or to Convert and Turkified or Death. The Kurds is now the majority of the Indo-European population in Turkey nowadays and they are not 100% Aryans. Greece in 1922 had to leave Smyrna because Ataturk burned it. If Europe come to Aid Greece that time parts of West Anatolia today are greek. The British also captured Constantinople, The Nova Roma and it is shame to be returned to the Turks.

Once great people habitated Anatolia, The Byzantines, Hittites, Greeks, Galatian Celts, Medeans (Predecesors of the Kurds), Persians. Europe must never integrate Turkey. I dont like 'Turkified Greeks' praising Turkey, But When the Imperium will be in place I hope they open their minds and should be Hellenised. Ataturk indeed was Blond but for me he wasnt Aryan, he has many Turkish traits, also He Fought for a New Turkish state in Anatolia, Not for an Armenian or Greek or Kurdish State.

[Jurgenarius]

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh265/jurgenbriffa/IMPERIVM.png

[IMPERIUM]

A truly grand Vision - born on the Sacred Island of Melita.
An Imperium girdling the globe - North & South of the equator.
An Imperium for Europids only.

The four cousin sub-Nations:
The Anglo Saxons, the Teutons, the Slavs and the Latins.
Together, we will dominate the world.

Then out into space!
O'Neil cities circling the earth, housing hundreds of thousands.
Terra forming of the Moon and Mars - and the beyond.

Imperium
0808

[Greenbacks]

Why not just go for Global Dominance while at it?

[etoile noir]

Why not just go for Global Dominance while at it?
we're working on it ..... and open to suggestion if you care to propose :rolleyes:

[Greenbacks]

We need to get the old man elected first....

;)we're working on it ..... and open to suggestion if you care to propose :rolleyes:

[Sepp44]

We need to get the old man elected first....

;)

We're working on that too Gb.:)

[ogenoct]

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh265/jurgenbriffa/IMPERIVM.png

Why are Iran and Pakistan on this map???

Constantin

[etoile noir]

Why are Iran and Pakistan on this map???

Constantin
..... because he blacked out malta by mistake, then left those 2, and some other dicey ones, to compensate :rolleyes:

[Jurgenarius]

Costantin, What the Imperium is based on? Race or Religion?

[etoile noir]

since this is under the "Imperium" section, nothing can be based on religion. religion, according to imperium, is a personal business and has nothing to do with state or "imperium affairs".

if anyone is basing maps, imaginary or otherwise, based on religion, then they are technically incorrect - according to Imperium.

[Jurgenarius]

What i had based there is not in religious matter. Its all about Race.

[Greenbacks]

Do you honestly believe that drawing maps is the key to the salvation of the Maltese nation and the other White nations, Jurgenarius Briffus? How about some good propaganda material?What i had based there is not in religious matter. Its all about Race.

[Jurgenarius]

Who told you that map is the salvation of Malta and other Aryan Nation? And in any case I do not make Propaganda! All I do is Reality! Note that! I had done that Map because I believe in the Vision of Imperium Europa!

[Greenbacks]

Yes, I can indeed see the reality.

[Eurodip]

Yes, I can indeed see the reality.

Why are Tasmania and New Caledonia on the map? ;)

I'll get me coat...

[Greenbacks]

It's because until that day, THEY'll be given somewhere else....
:DWhy are Tasmania and New Caledonia on the map? ;)

I'll get me coat...

[ogenoct]

Costantin, What the Imperium is based on? Race or Religion?

Race of course!

Constantin

[ogenoct]

What i had based there is not in religious matter. Its all about Race.

Then why are Iran and Pakistan on your map? Do you believe that Ahmadinejad is White (or even Aryan)? That filthy scumbag looks like a Turkish doner kebab vendor from Kreuzberg, Berlin.

Constantin

[Jurgenarius]

Of Course I agree with you... But is Ahmadinejad is a true Iranian? Of course Not!

What do you consider Ali Larijani? Mongolian, Blacks, Aryan?

the same for Benzhir Bhutto! I gaved you only 2 people and of course there is many more in that area. These people must discovered their true roots! They must reverse the Islamic Invasion and the Mongolian Invasion. And return like they was under Darius and Cyrus. Only the few remain of these people is the key.



http://www.leblogfinance.com/images/larijani_1_1.jpg
Ali Larijani

[Eurodip]

Of Course I agree with you... But is Ahmadinejad is a true Iranian? Of course Not!

What do you consider Ali Larijani? Mongolian, Blacks, Aryan?

the same for Benzhir Bhutto! I gaved you only 2 people and of course there is many more in that area. These people must discovered their true roots! They must reverse the Islamic Invasion and the Mongolian Invasion. And return like they was under Darius and Cyrus. Only the few remain of these people is the key.



http://www.leblogfinance.com/images/larijani_1_1.jpg
Ali Larijani

This thread breaks the record for the greatest amount of bollocks per byte. So I suppose a Scandinavian blonde Aryan rabid pacifist leftie wigger hippie would be welcomed with open arms into the "Imperium". And two thirds of the Israeli population too, because they Slavs. Way to go, way to go.

[Jurgenarius]

This thread breaks the record for the greatest amount of bollocks per byte. So I suppose a Scandinavian blonde Aryan rabid pacifist leftie wigger hippie would be welcomed with open arms into the "Imperium". And two thirds of the Israeli population too, because they Slavs. Way to go, way to go.
They will have to be Racially Aryans And They know what they are!

They need to rediscover their original culture. Not the current Islamic one.
Its like the Turkish one. You need pass both Racially and Culturaly, If there is Iranian who are Racially Europids and Culturally 'that is Revival of their old Culture' Indeed, I Belive they must be welcomed. But not an Arabic Descendent who wear the Turban and Sandals. I never stated that. Israel Culturaly is not European, They are Jewish...

[Eurodip]

They will have to be Racially Aryans And They know what they are!

They need to rediscover their original culture. Not the current Islamic one.
Its like the Turkish one. You need pass both Racially and Culturaly, If there is Iranian who are Racially Europids and Culturally 'that is Revival of their old Culture' Indeed, I Belive they must be welcomed. But not an Arabic Descendent who wear the Turban and Sandals. I never stated that. Israel Culturaly is not European, They are Jewish...

Right. But before all those Ukranians became Jewish and emigrated to Israel, they were Christians, right? So why not let them in as well? And could you please tell me whether the Tibetans' pre-Buddhist culture was Europid as well? And I suppose we'd have to include Jordan and the Lebanon, if we go by race. Your grand masterplan is so full of holes you could tow it behind a boat and haul in some lampuki.

[Jurgenarius]

Right. But before all those Ukranians became Jewish and emigrated to Israel, they were Christians, right? So why not let them in as well? And could you please tell me whether the Tibetans' pre-Buddhist culture was Europid as well? And I suppose we'd have to include Jordan and the Lebanon, if we go by race. Your grand masterplan is so full of holes you could tow it behind a boat and haul in some lampuki.
Who knows what they were. I dont know about Christian Ukrainians converting to Judaism, If you know bring links please. About Tibet, No one is sure, Currently There is no Aryans there. and in Lebanon they must decide if they are Arabs or not. And is Jordan Aryan? I think no.... I think. Be realistic. This cannot Generalize a whole people. The Different between Iran and Great Britain is simple that Iran was invaded by Islam, 1300 years ago and GB is invaded for the last 50 years. But the Original people in the Both Lands Are Aryans and speak Indo-European. Also Difference is also could be expressed by the word 'European'. It could be a man live in Europe, irrelevant the Race, Or European by Race who could live in every Continnet or European by Language because the majority of the Europeans speak Indo-European.

[etoile noir]

Your grand masterplan is so full of holes you could tow it behind a boat and haul in some lampuki.

:D

iva hallih kif qbadt mieghu! after all if there were so many holes you wouldn't catch lampuki anyhow because its early season and the ones they're catching right now are tiny baby ones (btt)

[Jurgenarius]

Hlief jinsulta u jmaqdar muwiex, u provi xejn...

[etoile noir]

Hlief jinsulta u jmaqdar muwiex, u provi xejn...
imaqdar iva, jinsulta le.

kultant ikun hemm bzonn ta xi hadd bhal ED biex jaghti xejra kemmxejn fattwali ta kif isehhu verament l-affarijiet fid-dinja. mhux qed nghid li huwa hazin li jkollok holma u li tipprova twettaqa biex issir realta, pero kultant hawn gew nara esagerazzjonijiet li, ghal xi hadd aktar matur u realistiku, jidhru holm li ser jibqghu holm.

hija haga li tpingi mappa, u iva haga sabiha, imma fir-realta, dik il-mappa tista issir realta? jew se noqodu npingu l-mapep u noholmu bl-imperi bla ma biss nipprovaw insolvu l-problemi fuq it-targa taghna?
mhux ahjar nipprovaw insolvu l-problemi ta malta l-ewwel, umbaghad naraw l-imperi, il pjaneta mars u fantaxjenzi ohrajn.

[ogenoct]

They will have to be Racially Aryans And They know what they are!

Does that mean that Finns are not allowed to be a part of the empire? And what about Hungarians? We need to avoid the term "Aryan." I prefer the term "Europid" or simply "European."

Constantin

[Greenbacks]

Finally, a bit of common sense!imaqdar iva, jinsulta le.

kultant ikun hemm bzonn ta xi hadd bhal ED biex jaghti xejra kemmxejn fattwali ta kif isehhu verament l-affarijiet fid-dinja. mhux qed nghid li huwa hazin li jkollok holma u li tipprova twettaqa biex issir realta, pero kultant hawn gew nara esagerazzjonijiet li, ghal xi hadd aktar matur u realistiku, jidhru holm li ser jibqghu holm.

hija haga li tpingi mappa, u iva haga sabiha, imma fir-realta, dik il-mappa tista issir realta? jew se noqodu npingu l-mapep u noholmu bl-imperi bla ma biss nipprovaw insolvu l-problemi fuq it-targa taghna?
mhux ahjar nipprovaw insolvu l-problemi ta malta l-ewwel, umbaghad naraw l-imperi, il pjaneta mars u fantaxjenzi ohrajn.

[Greenbacks]

Oh, before I forget, the Maltese are not Aryan either.

[Eurodip]

Does that mean that Finns are not allowed to be a part of the empire? And what about Hungarians? We need to avoid the term "Aryan." I prefer the term "Europid" or simply "European."

Constantin

European. Let's stick to the one true definition of the European identity. Europid refers to a somewhat vague race, which, if it ever existed, has been transformed beyond all recognition, making it impossible to define European identity in terms of race. In any case (u hawnhekk mhux immaqdar biss qieghed, Jurgen, u nota bene: qed nuza lingwa li mhijihiex Indo-European) some of the greatest enemies of European integration, and of the European identity, are the purest Aryans on the planet.

The thing is, Jurgenarius old chap, if you were to tell Ahmadinejad that he is Aryan, and that he should turn to his "original", pre-Islamic culture, and join the Imperium, he would laugh in your face, before having you beheaded for proselytism.

Get my point? Iranians and (tsk tsk) Tibetans are as far removed from Helleno-Germanic culture, which is at the very heart of the European identity, as Martians are from earthlings. It matters not one jot whether a person has blue eyes (as if blue eyes were the sole measure of 'Europeanness').

In my view, and I've made this abundantly clear over these last five years or so on this forum, Americans of European ancestry are not European. And neither are (for fuck's sake, think of your average swaggering hairy-chested Latino wearing his camiza nera) "South Americans from the White Cone", or Iranians, or Afghans, or Turkish, or Australians, or whetever.

The Maltese, saddled forever with a Arabic language and far away from the cultural and historical centres of Europe, only manage to cling on to the definition of "European", let alone "Europid", by virtue of their incorporation in a European kingdom in the Middle Ages, and an unbroken succession of European rulers right up to 1964. And we have to prove our European identity every inch of the way.

Your fantastical maps make a mockery of the European Identity, and European self-assertion. That is why they piss me off.

[Neverwinter]

In my view, and I've made this abundantly clear over these last five years or so on this forum, Americans of European ancestry are not European. And neither are (for fuck's sake, think of your average swaggering hairy-chested Latino wearing his camiza nera) "South Americans from the White Cone", or Iranians, or Afghans, or Turkish, or Australians, or whetever.And you are full of shit in this department. I am of European extraction and feel myself to be part of the European family because I am just that.

The 'new' Europeans are the ones that have no right whatsoever to the identity of which you speak. Their charade and the bastards that have made it possible are truly detestable.

My ancestors emigrated from Europe and they saw themselves as European as is evidenced by the strict immigration laws and culture that were infused into the newly birthed nation of the United States of America in the late 1700's. It was affirmed and reaffirmed that the USA was an extension of Europe despite the fact that it had become a sovereign nation in it's own right and worked for the creating of a new European ethnicity/nationality...the American.

This was to separate the new nation from the unrest of the Old Continent. Ethnic loyalties and old feuds had to be overcome if the USA was to become united and thus a great nation. It was not a renouncement of who they were. They knew very well who they were.

All of this became diluted and eventually completely scrapped with the ascension of the haters of our peoples in this last century. You are seeing the same thing happen to your continent that happened to the USA and is happening all over the European world.

Australia is European. Canada is European. South Africa is European. All of these people of European extraction remain Europeans...whether in continental Europe or overseas.

So, Ali Baba, with parents who originally immigrated to France, is European because he has slept with French women and eventually married one and created a family?

[Jurgenarius]

imaqdar iva, jinsulta le.

kultant ikun hemm bzonn ta xi hadd bhal ED biex jaghti xejra kemmxejn fattwali ta kif isehhu verament l-affarijiet fid-dinja. mhux qed nghid li huwa hazin li jkollok holma u li tipprova twettaqa biex issir realta, pero kultant hawn gew nara esagerazzjonijiet li, ghal xi hadd aktar matur u realistiku, jidhru holm li ser jibqghu holm.

hija haga li tpingi mappa, u iva haga sabiha, imma fir-realta, dik il-mappa tista issir realta? jew se noqodu npingu l-mapep u noholmu bl-imperi bla ma biss nipprovaw insolvu l-problemi fuq it-targa taghna?
mhux ahjar nipprovaw insolvu l-problemi ta malta l-ewwel, umbaghad naraw l-imperi, il pjaneta mars u fantaxjenzi ohrajn.
Mela muwiex fattwali li In-nies Ewropej bdew mil Asia Centrali u marret bicca fl-Ewropa, Bicca fil Lvan Nofsani, Bicca fl Iran u Afghanistan u India u Bicca goc-Cina (Tocharians)? Muwiex Fatwali il illum hemm nies fl Area Iranjana u Afghana li baqaw Genetikament Ewropej? Jien qatt xi darba ghadt li maniex nibdew insolvu il problema tghana? Ovjament imma trid ukoll tkun temmen f vizjoni, irrid ikollok target ghal xi haga.

Does that mean that Finns are not allowed to be a part of the empire? And what about Hungarians? We need to avoid the term "Aryan." I prefer the term "Europid" or simply "European."
Are the Finn Geneticaly Europeans? Of course yes! They are Europea